Author Topic: from the Science Desk  (Read 7805 times)

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Offline soapit

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #225 on: March 27, 2012, 08:30:02 PM »
I want to marry BGAB

you go for whiny voices? couldnt handle it myself (unless he turned out to be the strong completely silent type)

Offline briscoetheque

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #226 on: March 27, 2012, 08:36:38 PM »
he couldn't whine whilst I'm kissing him.

Offline Big Girls Are Best

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #227 on: March 27, 2012, 08:50:50 PM »
i was responding to what you wrote. if you dont want people to tear you down dont write such crap. if you stop doing this we all win. someone might eventually even be willing to debate you again (as opposed to the comedy value you currently represent).

Okay, in the spirit of "debate," please allow me to ask these questions (without any 'comedic' commentary):

1.) Why is the study of origins (i.e., evolution, Big Bang) even important? 

2.) What value as a species do we gain by trying to learn how life began?

3.) How does such knowledge impact our current condition? 

4.) Instead of digging up dinosaur bones, carbon dating rocks, and building telescopes to study quasars, wouldn’t it be far more beneficial to spend that money to help feed starving children in Africa and find cures for various diseases? 

5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago? 

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?

Offline soapit

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #228 on: March 27, 2012, 09:38:39 PM »
i was responding to what you wrote. if you dont want people to tear you down dont write such crap. if you stop doing this we all win. someone might eventually even be willing to debate you again (as opposed to the comedy value you currently represent).

Okay, in the spirit of "debate," please allow me to ask these questions (without any 'comedic' commentary):

1.) Why is the study of origins (i.e., evolution, Big Bang) even important? 

2.) What value as a species do we gain by trying to learn how life began?

3.) How does such knowledge impact our current condition? 

4.) Instead of digging up dinosaur bones, carbon dating rocks, and building telescopes to study quasars, wouldn’t it be far more beneficial to spend that money to help feed starving children in Africa and find cures for various diseases? 

5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago? 

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?

7.) why do gay people spend so much time on jetski's?

Offline briscoetheque

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #229 on: March 27, 2012, 11:48:45 PM »
Very good questions. Here's my immediate answers...

1.) Why is the study of origins (i.e., evolution, Big Bang) even important? 

Study, investigation, knowledge and learning... all form the basis for understanding of the past to ensure survival into the future. The very premise of evolution that is present in many species. Bears hibernate. Fish don't go to certain places at certain times of the year, birds fly north for the winter (well, down here they do...). Species learn and adapt based on what has come before. Humans use research and scientific method as well as instinct.

2.) What value as a species do we gain by trying to learn how life began?

See 1)

3.) How does such knowledge impact our current condition? 

Specifically, knowing how we came about does not directly impact our current condition. That is not what evolution is about. It is not what the adaptation of species is all about. It's about the increments along the way. What such knowledge and theorising (and the big bang is a theory, I agree with you on that) does is help us to understand that evolution which we can then apply to many facets of life and pass on to future generations. 'Intelligent evolution' if you like... evolving physically and psychologically through knowledge gained.

4.) Instead of digging up dinosaur bones, carbon dating rocks, and building telescopes to study quasars, wouldn’t it be far more beneficial to spend that money to help feed starving children in Africa and find cures for various diseases? 

Yes, it probably would. Why not spend all money on feeding starving children in Africa? To single out 3 specific fields of science is ridiculous and not the basis for an intelligent question

5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago? 

I agree that there is no life after death, but there is indeed life during life. And ethics, knowledge, research and learning contributes to future generations taking that knowledge forward. I've never much been on a quest for the meaning of life, other than I think we should gain knowledge, pass on what we know, and then die such that our species is left with more collectively than when we were born. The knowledge to adapt, the knowledge to not build a house in a dry riverbed, the knowledge to not eat those berries, but to eat those ones instead. Examples in their simplest form.

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?

Because not everybody does things to enter the kingdom of heaven. We live life whilst we are alive... personally I reckon that when I die my body will be put into a fire, my ashes sprinkled over some meaningful site like West Ham Football Ground or Princes Park, and that'll be it. That's not when it matters. It matters whilst I'm alive.

I admire your tenacity, I admire your ability to google, and I find you strangely attractive.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #230 on: March 28, 2012, 07:15:03 AM »
5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago? 

I agree that there is no life after death, but there is indeed life during life. And ethics, knowledge, research and learning contributes to future generations taking that knowledge forward. I've never much been on a quest for the meaning of life, other than I think we should gain knowledge, pass on what we know, and then die such that our species is left with more collectively than when we were born. The knowledge to adapt, the knowledge to not build a house in a dry riverbed, the knowledge to not eat those berries, but to eat those ones instead. Examples in their simplest form.

I agree with this. I do not believe there is life after death. The only life after death is, really, the memory of you that lives on in those you love. But eventually those you love will die, so really, you're just a spec of dust in a second of time in the vast universe. Unless you were lucky like Shakespeare and you wrote such inspiring wonderful stories that people still tell them after your death and know you by name. But only 1 person in millions gets that kind of afterlife. (I'd reckon Jesus was one of them as we're still talking about that dude as well...)

But while we're here, we still take part in something grand... We're a part of the design. And what we learn and pass on, or if we chose to have children and we pass on our genetic material, it all fits into the eventual outcome. Whatever that is.

That's about as mystical as I get.

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?

Because not everybody does things to enter the kingdom of heaven. We live life whilst we are alive... personally I reckon that when I die my body will be put into a fire, my ashes sprinkled over some meaningful site like West Ham Football Ground or Princes Park, and that'll be it. That's not when it matters. It matters whilst I'm alive.

I admire your tenacity, I admire your ability to google, and I find you strangely attractive.
[/quote]

I agree with this too. Except the strangely attractive part.

I suck at spirituality. And believe me, I've tried to get the whole God thing. But I'm thinking that perhaps I dont really have the God gene required to believe in much of anything mystical. Unless of course we're talking about The Force. I'm still trying to move things in my bedroom.

In all seriousness, the best I can do is call myself an agnostic (NOT an atheist). And on a good day, I claim to be UU. And while people are busy looking up what UU is, I can safely leave the scene before they decide I'm a godless heathen and start preaching to me.

Offline imaginary friend

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #231 on: March 28, 2012, 07:16:56 AM »

Offline KitCat

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #232 on: March 28, 2012, 11:57:41 AM »
he couldn't whine whilst I'm kissing him.

Anyone for tea? Bag in or bag out? There's some gingernuts here, they're great for dunking! Mmm, mouth full of that and you won't be whining! ;D


Radiometric dating of fossils is actually quite important from an economic sense; understanding stratigraphic sequencing can be vital to understanding an ore body (ore body = economic stimulus = (tax + private charity) = aid to starving children).

Well may we say what is the point of studying quasars, but let's not forget someone probably once said what is the point of studying the atom.

Offline Blue Silken Sky

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #233 on: March 28, 2012, 07:03:32 PM »

Offline Big Girls Are Best

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #234 on: March 28, 2012, 11:59:18 PM »
Very good questions. Here's my immediate answers...
I find it curious that you seem willing to respond to these questions in some detail, but absolutely refuse to discuss articles which highlight severe conflicts with current evolutionary theory.

1.) Why is the study of origins (i.e., evolution, Big Bang) even important?
Study, investigation, knowledge…
What is knowledge and what empirical evidence do you have that proves its existence? Also, where does knowledge (and the Laws of Logic) fit into Herbert Spencer's five categories: time, space, matter, force and action?

…and learning all form the basis for understanding of the past to ensure survival into the future.
How can we have real understanding of anything since we don’t know if it survived the evolutionary process any better than false understanding?

The very premise of evolution that is present in many species. Bears hibernate. Fish don't go to certain places at certain times of the year, birds fly north for the winter (well, down here they do...). Species learn and adapt based on what has come before.
Studying the hibernation and migratory patterns of certain animals falls under observational science, not historical science.  While these things are vital to our understanding of how things in our world operate today, your reply does not address why we need to know about origins.  For example, why do we need to know if Tiktaalik was the first land animal to evolve from fish?

Humans use research and scientific method as well as instinct.
I understand the roles “research” and “scientific methods” play, but what part of the scientific process allows for human “instinct”?  Also, how is instinct different from "presupposition"? 

Speaking of the scientific method, aren’t “historical” sciences severely limited by our inability to observe (Step #2) past events?

2.) What value as a species do we gain by trying to learn how life began?
See 1)
As I indicated, you are mixing observational and historical sciences.  So referring me back to your reply for the first question really doesn’t tell me what value this adds to our current efforts of survival today.

3.) How does such knowledge impact our current condition?
Specifically, knowing how we came about does not directly impact our current condition.
BINGO!! 

That is not what evolution is about. It is not what the adaptation of species is all about. It's about the increments along the way. What such knowledge and theorising (and the big bang is a theory, I agree with you on that) does is help us to understand that evolution which we can then apply to many facets of life and pass on to future generations. 'Intelligent evolution' if you like... evolving physically and psychologically through knowledge gained.
The point you make about “intelligent evolution” refers back to knowledge and is completely different from “biological evolution.”   

4.) Instead of digging up dinosaur bones, carbon dating rocks, and building telescopes to study quasars, wouldn’t it be far more beneficial to spend that money to help feed starving children in Africa and find cures for various diseases?
Yes, it probably would. Why not spend all money on feeding starving children in Africa? To single out 3 specific fields of science is ridiculous and not the basis for an intelligent question
I should have been more clear as I was not trying to single out three specific fields.  Rather, I was using them as examples. 

If, as you say, “knowing how we came about does not directly impact our current condition,” then why continue to fund the research of quasars (per se) over direct threats to human survival (e.g., cancer, AIDS, famine, etc.)? 
 
5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago?
I agree that there is no life after death, but there is indeed life during life.
What empirical evidence do you believe supports Professor Provine’s claim that there is no life after death?

And ethics, knowledge, research and learning contributes to future generations taking that knowledge forward. I've never much been on a quest for the meaning of life…
Do you believe we exist as the mere result of a “cosmic accident” (according to Carl Sagan)?

…other than I think we should gain knowledge, pass on what we know, and then die such that our species is left with more collectively than when we were born. The knowledge to adapt, the knowledge to not build a house in a dry riverbed, the knowledge to not eat those berries, but to eat those ones instead. Examples in their simplest form.
The examples of knowledge you provide of what to eat and where to build shelter are entirely different from trying to learn about our origins.  If life has no meaning, and we are the result of a “cosmic accident,” why is man so intrigued with trying to figure out how everything came into existence?  And why should we desire to pass that knowledge along to our offspring?

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?
Because not everybody does things to enter the kingdom of heaven. We live life whilst we are alive... personally I reckon that when I die my body will be put into a fire, my ashes sprinkled over some meaningful site like West Ham Football Ground or Princes Park, and that'll be it. That's not when it matters. It matters whilst I'm alive.
What matters? 

It is interesting that atheists (i.e., Eugenie Scott, Richard Dawkins, et al.) vigorously defend origin accounts that are completely devoid of a Creator, and vehemently oppose Christians for their belief in God.  But ultimately this position is irrational if there is nothing after death.  Because if atheists are right and there is no God (or afterlife), and Christians are utterly wrong, what does it matter?  At the very point of death atheists would "win" the intellectual discussion, but since we will have just ceased to exist, no one will remember anyway.

Offline soapit

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #235 on: March 29, 2012, 01:00:12 AM »
the point he was trying to make (which was confused with the mixing of historical and observational science) is that every species on earth is programmed to learn as much as they can and pass it on to their offspring in order to live longer and better.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #236 on: March 29, 2012, 01:37:48 AM »
i was responding to what you wrote. if you dont want people to tear you down dont write such crap. if you stop doing this we all win. someone might eventually even be willing to debate you again (as opposed to the comedy value you currently represent).

Okay, in the spirit of "debate," please allow me to ask these questions (without any 'comedic' commentary):

1.) Why is the study of origins (i.e., evolution, Big Bang) even important? 

2.) What value as a species do we gain by trying to learn how life began?

3.) How does such knowledge impact our current condition? 

4.) Instead of digging up dinosaur bones, carbon dating rocks, and building telescopes to study quasars, wouldn’t it be far more beneficial to spend that money to help feed starving children in Africa and find cures for various diseases? 

5.) If, as Professor Provine declared, "there is no life after death… there is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life," why do we continue to spend so much time and money to research and study matters that happened millions and billions of years ago? 

6.) Finally, if there really is "no ultimate meaning to life," why do people get so upset about these matters?

6) I don't believe in an ultimate meaning in life and don't get upset by it. We're organisms that will die and rot like any other life form. I find that idea quite liberating - it frees us.

Offline Big Girls Are Best

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #237 on: March 29, 2012, 11:42:45 AM »
6) I don't believe in an ultimate meaning in life and don't get upset by it. We're organisms that will die and rot like any other life form. I find that idea quite liberating - it frees us.

Does this liberating idea free us from all moral and ethical obligations?  After all, if there is no meaning to life, and nothing after death, why should anyone be held responsible for their own actions?

BTW, if there really is no meaning, why do we exhibit emotions such as love and empathy?

Offline Big Girls Are Best

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #238 on: March 29, 2012, 11:50:38 AM »
the point he was trying to make (which was confused with the mixing of historical and observational science) is that every species on earth is programmed to learn as much as they can and pass it on to their offspring in order to live longer and better.

Every species on earth is programmed to learn?  If our existence is the mere result of a cosmic accident and all organisms resulted from a blind, automated process, why do you use the word "programmed"?  Doesn’t that seem to imply a Creator?

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #239 on: March 29, 2012, 12:29:05 PM »
6) I don't believe in an ultimate meaning in life and don't get upset by it. We're organisms that will die and rot like any other life form. I find that idea quite liberating - it frees us.

Does this liberating idea free us from all moral and ethical obligations?  After all, if there is no meaning to life, and nothing after death, why should anyone be held responsible for their own actions?

BTW, if there really is no meaning, why do we exhibit emotions such as love and empathy?

That question is totally stupid. Why does there have to be a creator in order for us to have a moral code of conduct among us? I think our over-sized brains allow us the ability to think beyond ourselves and empathize with others who are not ourselves. We dont need the threat of god (or at least I dont) to behave in a way that is kind and loving towards others. People who are good only because they believe God will punish them have no more advanced thinking than a 5 year old. (Children think very basically--"I won't steal that candy because my dad will spank me." is good enough for them. As adults, most of conceptualize that stealing from someone else takes something from someone else and is therefore not how we would like to be treated.)

I am scared of people who are only compelled to be good because they fear God's wrath.... Seems to me they could go postal any day.

Probably some animals are capable of love in similar ways to ourselves. I'm sure my cat feels some affection for me. When my husband died, I could definitely tell that my cats grieved him for awhile...