“U2 ARE now very close to irrelevance” - Bono to Irish Times, Sept 10, 2011

[dysthanasiac]

if you think it can't be proven why become involved in a discussion about whether it is or not?

Because, for some strange reason, you're trying to do it anyway

Moreover, the use of sales numbers as a referendum on quality is precisely why some think the band has completely lost their touch.  I see All That... and How to... as formulaic retreads designed to reach the lowest common denominator, because, for some inexplicable reason, acceptance became more important to the band than honesty.  (Yes, that is an opinion, and I don't need it to be any more than that.)

edit: oh and most loved is not the same as saying something is better or best. best album is a personal opinion. if you were to say "considered best album by the most people" then we'd be getting to the point where you could have a go at quantifying it and sales would be a way to do it.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could be so hopelessly dense as to not realize that ANY qualitative judgment of art is an opinion.  "Best," "worst," "most loved," "least loved," "relevant," "irrelevant" are all words that describe opinions and nothing more. 

I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics that must be taking place in the minds of those who think these absurd claims are rational.

[satellitedog01]

My oh my, U2 has become politics. :-/

[Tumbling Dice]

My oh my, U2 has become politics. :-/

U2's lyrics are rubbing off on you.

[xy]

There's nothing abstract about album sales demonstrating the mass appeal of albums.

You're absolutely correct.  Such a statement is very clearly and distinctively both misguided and erroneous.  There's nothing abstract about it.

Subjective opinions automatically have more merit than objective facts. Not.

(Brilliant retort, by the way.)

I do hope you're not under the impression that you're in any way relaying objective facts when you point to album sales to support your claim.  You cannot discern mass appeal from gross numbers.  It's not possible now, nor will it ever be.  You are only lying to yourself.

How do you account for those who bought it and hated it?

How do you account those who never bought it and loved every second?

How do you account for those who bought it and don't have an opinion one way or the other?

How do you account for those who bought it and never listened to it?

How do you account for those who only bought portions of the record?

Not misguided and certainly not erroneous.

Next...

It's the only retort when "I think this album sucks" type of knee-jerk opinions are viewed as the infinite wisdom. And objective data is disregarded completely. (a quick word : saying ATYCLB is a much loved album has absolutely nothing to do with quality no matter how hard some may try...)

What about those people ? Lots of people buy U2 albums. Some are big fans, some are casual fans, some may only buy the Best of. Just like any other band.

[xy]

And sales are pretty decent metric already in existence that are perfectly capable of quantifying mass appeal.

[...]

What measure do you propose?

[...]

The fan forums don't speak for the worldwide opinion, and it's a mystery why they feel so offended by the popularity of 00's U2 records.

Album sales numbers are only capable of quantifying album sales.  (The label kinda gives it away.)

And I propose no measures whatsoever, because my feelings on the subject aren't so insecure that they require made-to-order statistical reinforcement.  My only interests in this conversation stem from an innate desire for objectivity and a strong distaste for spin doctoring.

so you are confidently declaring its not loved based on nothing but your feelings? if you werent willing to talk about how others felt about the album (measured for example by album sales) maybe this is one you could have stayed out of. the statement is kind of about the general population and not just you personally

If you are using sales as a barometer of the 'most loved' status of ATYCLB, you can feel confident it isn't their 'best loved' record by some margin. Sales of it were way below 3 or 4 of their other albums.

This is why xy's argument falls down every time. He/she keeps using sales to back up his/her contention. So, as far as ATYCLB is concerned, sales don't back up its status as 'most loved' even if sales were a reasonable measure of a records longevity - which they aren't. Everything else is just opinion which isn't really quantifiable unless one polls the whole world to see which U2 songs they prefer.

One thing's for sure - it's mostly a crap album.

Most loved post AB, once again for those that don't read. And sales very much back it up, no matter how much the statistics get frowned upon.

And that's really not for sure - just an opinion.

Sales don't back up what your saying and don't support your argument. 4 other U2 albums sold BETTER than ATYCLB.

In fact, if you believe sales to be a barometer of popularity, R and H is a much 'better loved' record than ATYCLB.

Is that what you're saying?

Pretty sure most people are aware JT-Rattle and Hum-AB sold more. Hence, one last time, I said "most loved AFTER AB".
As for Best of, no one said anything about compilations - but yes, the first Best of outsold ATYCLB. So ? People love 80's U2.

Sure. It sold considerably more, hence it's a more loved album (with a bigger mass appeal). And it's hard to argue JT is not their best loved album, when it has the sales, the Album of the year and two No. 1 US hits. But anything is possible, I suppose.

[soapit]

if you think it can't be proven why become involved in a discussion about whether it is or not?

Because, for some strange reason, you're trying to do it anyway

Moreover, the use of sales numbers as a referendum on quality is precisely why some think the band has completely lost their touch.  I see All That... and How to... as formulaic retreads designed to reach the lowest common denominator, because, for some inexplicable reason, acceptance became more important to the band than honesty.  (Yes, that is an opinion, and I don't need it to be any more than that.)

edit: oh and most loved is not the same as saying something is better or best. best album is a personal opinion. if you were to say "considered best album by the most people" then we'd be getting to the point where you could have a go at quantifying it and sales would be a way to do it.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could be so hopelessly dense as to not realize that ANY qualitative judgment of art is an opinion.  "Best," "worst," "most loved," "least loved," "relevant," "irrelevant" are all words that describe opinions and nothing more. 

I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics that must be taking place in the minds of those who think these absurd claims are rational.

well you have now crossed over into the unreasonable area that your friend sugarcube is at. i really dont think this is important enough to start calling people liars mate. settle down.

i'm not going to respond to either of you anymore. the point relies on a subtlety of language you dont seem to possess not to mention you are being rude and i really dont care enough about this to waste more time on you two.  so for old times sake.... whether large number of people like or love something is pretty easily gauged by sales. its not a comment on its subjective value, just that more people liked what they heard and bought it and there is then more love in total for it than other albums that people didnt buy.

[dysthanasiac]

That suits me just fine.  I abhor being subjected to lies, false reasoning and convoluted logic, and my patience was obviously running quite thin.

[Tumbling Dice]

That suits me just fine.  I abhor being subjected to lies, false reasoning and convoluted logic, and my patience was obviously running quite thin.

Ah I see you've met soapit.

[Sugarcube]

if you think it can't be proven why become involved in a discussion about whether it is or not?

Because, for some strange reason, you're trying to do it anyway

Moreover, the use of sales numbers as a referendum on quality is precisely why some think the band has completely lost their touch.  I see All That... and How to... as formulaic retreads designed to reach the lowest common denominator, because, for some inexplicable reason, acceptance became more important to the band than honesty.  (Yes, that is an opinion, and I don't need it to be any more than that.)

edit: oh and most loved is not the same as saying something is better or best. best album is a personal opinion. if you were to say "considered best album by the most people" then we'd be getting to the point where you could have a go at quantifying it and sales would be a way to do it.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could be so hopelessly dense as to not realize that ANY qualitative judgment of art is an opinion.  "Best," "worst," "most loved," "least loved," "relevant," "irrelevant" are all words that describe opinions and nothing more. 

I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics that must be taking place in the minds of those who think these absurd claims are rational.

well you have now crossed over into the unreasonable area that your friend sugarcube is at. i really dont think this is important enough to start calling people liars mate. settle down.

i'm not going to respond to either of you anymore. the point relies on a subtlety of language you dont seem to possess not to mention you are being rude and i really dont care enough about this to waste more time on you two.  so for old times sake.... whether large number of people like or love something is pretty easily gauged by sales. its not a comment on its subjective value, just that more people liked what they heard and bought it and there is then more love in total for it than other albums that people didnt buy.

Superb - adulthood must seem like a long way off! 

[Sugarcube]

And sales are pretty decent metric already in existence that are perfectly capable of quantifying mass appeal.

[...]

What measure do you propose?

[...]

The fan forums don't speak for the worldwide opinion, and it's a mystery why they feel so offended by the popularity of 00's U2 records.

Album sales numbers are only capable of quantifying album sales.  (The label kinda gives it away.)

And I propose no measures whatsoever, because my feelings on the subject aren't so insecure that they require made-to-order statistical reinforcement.  My only interests in this conversation stem from an innate desire for objectivity and a strong distaste for spin doctoring.

so you are confidently declaring its not loved based on nothing but your feelings? if you werent willing to talk about how others felt about the album (measured for example by album sales) maybe this is one you could have stayed out of. the statement is kind of about the general population and not just you personally

If you are using sales as a barometer of the 'most loved' status of ATYCLB, you can feel confident it isn't their 'best loved' record by some margin. Sales of it were way below 3 or 4 of their other albums.

This is why xy's argument falls down every time. He/she keeps using sales to back up his/her contention. So, as far as ATYCLB is concerned, sales don't back up its status as 'most loved' even if sales were a reasonable measure of a records longevity - which they aren't. Everything else is just opinion which isn't really quantifiable unless one polls the whole world to see which U2 songs they prefer.

One thing's for sure - it's mostly a crap album.

Most loved post AB, once again for those that don't read. And sales very much back it up, no matter how much the statistics get frowned upon.

And that's really not for sure - just an opinion.

Sales don't back up what your saying and don't support your argument. 4 other U2 albums sold BETTER than ATYCLB.

In fact, if you believe sales to be a barometer of popularity, R and H is a much 'better loved' record than ATYCLB.

Is that what you're saying?

Pretty sure most people are aware JT-Rattle and Hum-AB sold more. Hence, one last time, I said "most loved AFTER AB".
As for Best of, no one said anything about compilations - but yes, the first Best of outsold ATYCLB. So ? People love 80's U2.

Sure. It sold considerably more, hence it's a more loved album (with a bigger mass appeal). And it's hard to argue JT is not their best loved album, when it has the sales, the Album of the year and two No. 1 US hits. But anything is possible, I suppose.

Sales... Size... Sales... Size... time to change your modus operandi vis a vis your contention.

You might think ATYCLB is their SECOND best loved album. I don't. The difference being my contention has nothing to do with sales figures. Apart from Beautiful Day and at a push Elevation, no one in the normal world cares for much of the rest of the album. They'd rather hear U2's Greatest Hits

[soapit]

That suits me just fine.  I abhor being subjected to lies, false reasoning and convoluted logic, and my patience was obviously running quite thin.

Ah I see you've met soapit.

and we all know you too TD. of course you are not up to discussing anything with me yourself anymore and are only left with barracking from the sidelines. i suppose it makes you feel a bit better about yourself to do it. funny way for a grown man to behave though.

[DGordon1]

This whole thread represents odd behaviour for grown ups.

[soapit]

i apologise if i have contributed to this.

[singnomore]

Everyone - this thread is about a 'topic' not about having lame punts at people because you don't agree with your opinion or how that opinion has been articulated or written. By all means debate but there are a few people nearly crossing THAT line.

So continue on topic please..

[Sugarcube]

Everyone - this thread is about a 'topic' not about having lame punts at people because you don't agree with your opinion or how that opinion has been articulated or written. By all means debate but there are a few people nearly crossing THAT line.

So continue on topic please..

No one wants to now it's no fun,