Proposition 8 Overturned

[The Unknown Caller]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/feb/07/prop-8-california-appeal-live

A Federal Appeals Court has ruled 2-1 that California's 'Proposition 8' ban on same-sex marriage in California is unconstitutional, clearing the way for a Supreme Court decision on the issue and quite possibly, the reinstatement of same-sex marriage in California. The judges said in their majority opinion;

""Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbian in CA""

In the words of Bono, the journey of equality moves on.

[Big Girls Are Best]

Don't look now, but this gay marriage controvery isn't going away any time soon!

[Tumbling Dice]

The average cost of a wedding is $27,000.

[ryanm]

"Although the Constitution permits communities to enact most laws they believe to be desirable, it requires there be at least a legitimate reason for the passage of a law that treats different classes of people differently. There was no such reason that Proposition 8 could have been enacted. Because under California statutory law, same-sex couples had all the the rights of opposite-sex couples, regardless of their marital status, all parties agree that Proposition 8 had one effect only. It stripped same-sex couples of the ability they had previously possessed to obtain from the State, or any other authorized party, an important right - the right to obtain and use the desgination of 'marriage' to describe relationships. Nothing more, nothing less. Proposition 8 therefore could not have been enacted to advance California's interests in childrearing or responsible procreation, for it had no effect on the rights of same-sex couples to raise children or on the procreative practices of other couples. Nor did Proposition 8 have any effect on religious freedom or on parents' rights to control their children's education; it could not have been enacted to safeguard these liberties."

- Today's ruling on Prop 8

I hope this foundation will provide justification for the Supreme Court to apply a blanket ruling that any state ban on marriage equality is unconstitutional.

[striker]

It's so crazy that this is even a major issue in this country. The people against gay marriage are idiots, bigots, and quite possibly one of the worst kinds of human beings. The fact that they hide behind some religious mindset to back up their ignorance (sanctity of marriage) further proves that it's only going to get worse before it starts getting better. Unless we all get on the same page and look at humanity for what it really is (evolved apes), we aren't going anywhere.

The politicians who are scrambling to keep this a "religious" country, with archaic religious ideals, are losing the battle. People can't be fooled anymore.

[Big Girls Are Best]

The people against gay marriage are idiots, bigots, and quite possibly one of the worst kinds of human beings.

So because I believe in God and verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9, you equate me (and other Christians) with the likes of Hitler and this guy??

BTW, what are your thoughts about "triangular triads"?  Anything goes, right?

Unless we all get on the same page and look at humanity for what it really is (evolved apes), we aren't going anywhere.

From where did morals originate?  Marc Hauser of Harvard has been leading the research on the origins of morals… well, that is until he was fired for eight counts of academic misconduct.  How ironic.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero basis for morals or ethics in nature.  And as Professor William Provine famously stated: “modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear… There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death… There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”

Now if we are all just evolved animals, and there is no free will (according to Provine), then I obviously can't help the views that I hold, right?

[imaginary friend]

1) thought I'd add a few other translations of said verse:    http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm

2) if 3 consenting adults in a mutual relationship want to be married, they should be allowed to be as miserable as 2-party marriages.

3) you can always move past the views that you hold, should you choose to.

on topic: it's a pretty narrow decision; I wouldn't start cheering or wringing hands too much. Long way to go, yet...but it is a good step for basic human decency. 

[Big Girls Are Best]

1) thought I'd add a few other translations of said verse:    http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm

Most still specifically mention "homosexuality" and "males lying down with males."  So which translation do you favor?

[The Unknown Caller]

Remember; Jesus had an eternity with God before He came to Earth, thirty years to plan what he was going to say and three full years to preach. In all of that time, he never, ever once found it in ANY way worth remotely alluding to homosexuality in the slightest.

The only possible conclusion is that he despised it and wanted to make attacking gay people the number one priority of his earthly followers.

[Droo]

The people against gay marriage are idiots, bigots, and quite possibly one of the worst kinds of human beings.

So because I believe in God and verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9, you equate me (and other Christians) with the likes of Hitler and this guy??

BTW, what are your thoughts about "triangular triads"?  Anything goes, right?

Unless we all get on the same page and look at humanity for what it really is (evolved apes), we aren't going anywhere.

From where did morals originate?  Marc Hauser of Harvard has been leading the research on the origins of morals… well, that is until he was fired for eight counts of academic misconduct.  How ironic.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero basis for morals or ethics in nature.  And as Professor William Provine famously stated: “modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear… There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death… There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”

Now if we are all just evolved animals, and there is no free will (according to Provine), then I obviously can't help the views that I hold, right?

Biblical gay bashing is such absolute nonsense, best summed up by this article here: http://www.believeoutloud.com/boltoday/20111230/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing

To directly refute your quote of 1 Corinthians, Big Girls, I proffer you this excerpt from the article:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & 1 Timothy 1:9-10

So, remember back a few paragraphs ago when we talked about a Greek word? And remember how it didn't even hurt one little bit? Good. We are going to do it again.

I have put the 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy clobber verses together because they both use a particular Greek word in a particularly similar way. The word is arsenokoitēs and it means “male prostitute.” (Behold the Greek scholarship. See that it is good and rejoice).  Actually, it could also mean “the customer of a male prostitute,” or  “boy molester” or  “someone who abuses themselves with a man” or  “using sexual manipulation to acquire money” or … (eh hem, “Behold the great and powerful Greek Interpretation!” <insert flashing light and crashing thunder>).

So, the word in these two verses, that is frequently interpreted as “homosexual” (which is absurd because, in Greek, it is clearly only a word referring to men) or “sodomite” (which is absurd, among other reasons, because that was not the sin of Sodom, as we have already discussed), is really difficult to translate. Why? In part, because it is only found in these two places and also, in part, because it is entirely possible that it is a made up word. It is very likely that Greek speaking Jews created this word to port a Hebrew word to Greek and over time the meaning has been lost. So, it is just hard to translate. So difficult, in fact, that scholars can't agree on a single best translation. What most biblical Greek scholars can agree on is that it is not meant to be a blanket statement about a male-male sex act. Moving on.

There is another word used in 1 Corinthians 6:9: malakos. The good news about this word is that it is found in lots of literature, so there are plenty of references about its typical intended meaning. It literally means “soft.”  Some say it means “soft” as in “effeminate, but not in terms of sexual orientation.” Others, say it is connected with being wasteful of sexual and financial resources. Still others convincingly point to it singling out a particular type of male prostitution involving young boys. Also in the list of contenders: sexual perverts, sodomites, weaklings, the self-indulgent. (“Behold the great and powerful Greek Interpretation!” <insert flashing light and crashing thunder>). Like with  arsenokoitēs there really is no expert consensus on this.

Malakos was a word that could be used to refer to things as diverse as men who were weak in battle (or who were “soft”), to men who lived extravagant and pampered lives (or who were... well, “soft”). It was not specifically about sexual relationships. If Paul was actually trying to describe something about a submissive male in a male-male relationship (which is still not the same as homosexuality as we understand it today), it's very likely that he would have used kinaedos, which was frequently used to describe that very relationship. But he didn't. So, stop acting like he was.

Thus, the use of the word homosexual in that translation is hogwash. The concept of sexual orientation DID NOT EXIST in those days. Thus there were no "homosexuals" as they understood the world.

I invite you to actually read the article, instead of just closing your mind to the issue.

[Tumbling Dice]

I've booked a ringside seat for this one.

[Droo]

It really doesn't impact me at all. I'm getting married next year! Oh Canada!

That said, I feel absolutely terrible for American gays and how much they must feel that they are considered subhuman trash by large groups of their population and, most troublingly, their politicians and leaders.

[ryanm]

The people against gay marriage are idiots, bigots, and quite possibly one of the worst kinds of human beings.

So because I believe in God and verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9, you equate me (and other Christians) with the likes of Hitler and this guy??

BTW, what are your thoughts about "triangular triads"?  Anything goes, right?

Unless we all get on the same page and look at humanity for what it really is (evolved apes), we aren't going anywhere.

From where did morals originate?  Marc Hauser of Harvard has been leading the research on the origins of morals… well, that is until he was fired for eight counts of academic misconduct.  How ironic.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero basis for morals or ethics in nature.  And as Professor William Provine famously stated: “modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear… There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death… There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”

Now if we are all just evolved animals, and there is no free will (according to Provine), then I obviously can't help the views that I hold, right?

Taking any one line out of any translation of the bible and believing it literally is dangerous.  Every single verse in every book in every translation needs context, historical background, several possible other translations, and your conscience to guide you.  For instance, in 1 Corinthians 6:9, the message is essentially "the unworthy will not inherit the kingdom of God."  Now you have to ask yourself: what makes a person unworthy?  You could refer to the list of offenders in this verse, but they differ by translation.  Furthermore, these terms (derived from whatever the original words were) had different meanings 2,000 years ago than what they do now.  Hence, relying on them is, in my opinion, foolish.   After all, would you unquestionably trust any other document translated and re-translated over a thousand year period?  Really questioning what each verse means is an incredibly daunting task, but a necessary one.

Also, I find your mention of "triangular triads" misguided in this debate, which is about expanding marriage rights to same-sex couples.  Bigamy or group marriages have nothing to do with this issue.  Nor do other phenomena like bestiality or pedophilia, which are two more terms ignorant people love to throw into this debate because they lack the basic understanding of psychology, such as the difference between loving, committed relationships and relationships founded upon manipulation and control of those who are not able to consent.  I'm not implying that you're in this group as you did not mention the later two, but many high-profile marriage opponents have.

And pertaining to your last point, why isn't it possible that God guided mankind through the process of evolution?  That's what I believe.  Science and religion aren't opposites, they're complementary languages trying to explain the same thing.

[Blue Silken Sky]

It really doesn't impact me at all. I'm getting married next year! Oh Canada!

That said, I feel absolutely terrible for American gays and how much they must feel that they are considered subhuman trash by large groups of their population and, most troublingly, their politicians and leaders.

Go you, and go Canada!   

My brother and his husband were fortunate to wed in the short period of a few months after the CA Supreme Court ruled same-sex marriage constitutional and before Prop 8 passed.  It just astounds me that the initiative process was used to take rights away from other human beings.During that same election, California voters approved another proposition that prohibited inhumane caging of egg-producing chickens.  The popular little statement at the time was "More rights for the chickens, fewer rights for the gays."

So yeah, I've definitely got a personal bias when it comes to this issue...

[striker]

The people against gay marriage are idiots, bigots, and quite possibly one of the worst kinds of human beings.

So because I believe in God and verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9, you equate me (and other Christians) with the likes of Hitler and this guy??

BTW, what are your thoughts about "triangular triads"?  Anything goes, right?

Unless we all get on the same page and look at humanity for what it really is (evolved apes), we aren't going anywhere.

From where did morals originate?  Marc Hauser of Harvard has been leading the research on the origins of morals… well, that is until he was fired for eight counts of academic misconduct.  How ironic.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero basis for morals or ethics in nature.  And as Professor William Provine famously stated: “modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear… There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death… There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”

Now if we are all just evolved animals, and there is no free will (according to Provine), then I obviously can't help the views that I hold, right?

What's your stance on gay marriage? I want to hear what you really think about it, not what some group has been feeding you since you were able to start forming thoughts. Why is it that you hold that belief? Are you grossed out that the same sex are able to kiss and hold hands and make love? Is that icky to you?
You can also avoid quoting the bible, because that'll hold no ground whatsover. I can also provide various bible quotes as well, of the atrocious kind mind you, and have you do your best in explaining them. Should be interesting.

My thoughts on the gay marriage subject are based on human rights. What everyone is entitled to if they choose to take that path. If you look at history, you'll see that religion hasn't been very kind to those who aren't procreating and spreading the teachings (gays) to their offspring. They've changed their views over the years to fit current times, and you can't disprove that. Look back 100 years and you'll find that the ones spreading God's word were even worse to those who went for the same sex. It's now more accepted, and in 50 years from now religions will welcome homesexuals into their churches like nothing happened.

It's bananas to even have this debate. Do you actually think that a God who created the entire universe--the billions of galaxies, planets, stars, etc, would concern himself with where some dude sticks his thing into? Do you think he's watching every single person right now and making notes about who's going to hell and who's not?

Get real.