Author Topic: another week, another mass shooting in the USA  (Read 11440 times)

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Offline Bads316

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #150 on: December 16, 2012, 03:50:24 PM »
Putting out the fire with gasoline.





Offline briscoetheque

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2012, 04:10:02 PM »
One of the problems faced in the US is that if gun laws are changed, it will take years for that to get through to the culture and psyche of the public.

You'd be looking at probably 100-150 years to see huge cultural change.

And this will only provide ammunition (sic) to the gun lobby. 5 minutes after a law has passed, there will be a shooting "ya see? nuthin' has changed! you freakin communists have NO idea".

It's a huge battle due to the ingrained paranoia, self righteousness and downright stupidity of the gun lobby who believe everything is a conspiracy to remove their liberties.

No thought whatsoever for a child having their brains blown out by a firearm that has NO place in society.

Oh but don't worry, the gun lobby will 'pray for them'.

Offline Droo

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #152 on: December 16, 2012, 05:33:25 PM »
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It's a huge battle due to the ingrained paranoia, self righteousness and downright stupidity of the gun lobby who believe everything is a conspiracy to remove their liberties.

This is the biggest irony of all: these people don't seem to realize that there is very little absolute liberty in the way we run our lives. Laws restrict and dictate the actions of citizens in pervasive ways, even in societies who like to think of themselves as "free". Criminal laws forbid certain behaviours. Traffic laws dictate how we can behave behind the wheel of a car. Tax laws demand we give up a certain amount of our earned money to the government. etc. etc. etc.

The idea of liberty is largely an illusion, yet somehow a certain subset of the population is so paranoid and militant in preventing their governments from doing anything that they see as restricting their liberty, even if it's for the greater good.

Offline Starman

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #153 on: December 16, 2012, 05:50:21 PM »
I think this is also a sign that universal healthcare is important. I'm not sure what the suspect's healthcare was like, but he needed a little more help than usual as he had Asberger's Syndrome. Some cases can be worse than others. I actually have Asberger's but I'm a normal functioning person. I can assure you that I would never think of doing an awful crime like this.

That being said, I don't think I should be legally allowed to buy a gun. I don't plan on ever buying one anyways, so maybe that's why I feel this way: because I'm not attached to the 2nd Amendment.

Offline Droo

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #154 on: December 16, 2012, 05:55:03 PM »
Even universal healthcare doesn't mean that you'll get free mental healthcare. Here in Canada, our healthcare really only covers physical maladies. The amount of coverage for therapists/psychiatrists is laughable. I think you get something ridiculous like three free sessions a year. Hardly enough to address serious mental health issues.

Offline The Unknown Caller

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #155 on: December 16, 2012, 08:16:32 PM »
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"In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed."

Offline Maximus

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #156 on: December 16, 2012, 09:57:46 PM »
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"In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed."

Typical MOJO spin. Guns aren't the problem society is the problem. We live in culture that devalues life...this is what you get. Switzerland is the most armed nation in the world and they don't have the problems we do. That being said. There is very little use for assault rifles for home protection, in fact they shouldn't be used for home protection as they penetrate walls and could hurt the people you are trying to protect. A shotgun and a 9mm Pistol is a much better choice (as well as a guard dog)

Just remeber before condemning the US:

In England and Wales alone — discounting Scotland — there were over 163 thousand knife crimes.
In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down).
In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime committed for every 750 people

So lets not look only at guns we need to look at our society in general. Do we need to ban assault rifles-yes. But before we get a bunch of brits on here saying we should ban all guns, then they should also be saying they should ban all knives in the UK.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:02:58 PM by Maximus »

Offline JTBaby

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #157 on: December 16, 2012, 10:15:00 PM »
Knife "crimes" or knife "murders"?

How many knife "crimes" in the US ?

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« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:16:38 PM by JTBaby »

Offline Maximus

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #158 on: December 16, 2012, 10:30:52 PM »
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Knife "crimes" or knife "murders"?

How many knife "crimes" in the US ?

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The UK is a more violent country than the US I know UNKC will argue that by every stat I have seen including official UN, EU< FBI and BC confirm that. (as well as the fact the UK fudges their crime states esp when it comes to rape, the US is a lot stricter)

I could buy off on banning assault rifles (because they serve no real purpose, either for hunting or home protection), however we need to look at society and what is causing the issues, what caused the riots in UK or France, what is causing the mass killings in the US?, why to Euros esp Brits riot and make racist chants at soccer games? I don't know. Guns as well as knives don't commit crimes they are inanimate objects. People commit crimes, without the demented mind they would simply by another tool to hunt or cut my steak.

Offline briscoetheque

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #159 on: December 16, 2012, 10:41:53 PM »
Kill 26 people in the blink of an eye with a steak knife. Keep reading from the hymn sheet.

Spin it however you want. Include knife crimes. Exclude murders committed on a tuesday. Include aggravated assaults. Exclude murders committed by the unemployed.

Change will eventually come. Perhaps not in yours or my lifetime.

Perhaps switzerland doesn't have as many f****** nutcases as the USA does. All the more reason to reduce the numbers of firearms in the USA

The main defence of the pro-gun crowd is 'it might not work'. Without actually considering that it just might.

You're right. Society itself needs to be looked at.

Start by removing as many unnecessary firearms from the country as you can. Remove the exposure to guns and the acceptance will fall and you'll suddenly be starting some generational change that, sure, will take years... but start now and it'll be improving sooner than starting tomorrow.

It sickens me that there is such a number of vocal opponents to increased gun control. What exactly are you afraid of?

Offline AchtungPop

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #160 on: December 16, 2012, 11:01:33 PM »
Everyone focuses on guns, and yeah they should be tougher to get and they have to make changes, but because people focus on guns they forget about mental health. Mass murderers almost always have major problems and signs. Based on all we're getting about his personality disorder and violent outbursts, he should have been institutionalized. This family was very wealthy, so I wonder why he wasn't. Maybe the school had suggested something along those lines, and thats why she pulled him out of it?

Who knows, but it seems like they didn't want to admit he had serious issues. Keeping guns in the house with someone who had mental issues was obviously not a good idea either. You never think something this terrible will happen, but it can and it does and people have to pay attention to it. It seems to get swept under the rug.

Offline briscoetheque

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #161 on: December 16, 2012, 11:13:04 PM »
The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You can definitely say 'address the gun problem' and 'address mental health'.

The gun lobby would rather hear you say 'guns aren't the problem, you need to leave all that as it is and look at mental health'.

Isn't society intelligent enough to try and do both?

Offline Maximus

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #162 on: December 16, 2012, 11:47:27 PM »
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The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You can definitely say 'address the gun problem' and 'address mental health'.

The gun lobby would rather hear you say 'guns aren't the problem, you need to leave all that as it is and look at mental health'.

Isn't society intelligent enough to try and do both?

Gun Crimes are the symptoms not the disease. I would ask is it more tragic that 26 people die at once or is it more tragic that 27 people are stabbed in say Manchester-a death is a death and just because it happens all at once it is more horrific, not more tragic, just more news worthy.

In assaults involving force, sexual incidents, burglary and motor vehicle thefts, Australia ranked highest of all countries surveyed

Since it is apparent that Aussies don't know how to use there tallywackers should we ban them?

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Anyway you know I was being silly, but I am making a larger point there is a problem in society, what is causing the rash of copy cat massacres. What is wrong with our youth, I don't know

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #163 on: December 17, 2012, 12:02:41 AM »
The UK probably does have higher levels of violent crime than the US, excluding homicides, and I put that down to the UK criminal justice system being softer than in the US and the fact that we don’t have anywhere near the prison capacity to deal with the level of criminality in my country.  But, crucially, when it comes to the most serious violent crime of all, murder, the homicide rate in the US is far higher than in the UK.  By way of comparison, the US has 3.2 firearms homicides per 100,000 of population compared with 1.6 for Canada, 1.0 for Australia and 0.1 for England and Wales, according to a 2012 report by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. 


Offline soapit

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #164 on: December 17, 2012, 12:49:50 AM »
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The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You can definitely say 'address the gun problem' and 'address mental health'.

The gun lobby would rather hear you say 'guns aren't the problem, you need to leave all that as it is and look at mental health'.

Isn't society intelligent enough to try and do both?

Gun Crimes are the symptoms not the disease. I would ask is it more tragic that 26 people die at once or is it more tragic that 27 people are stabbed in say Manchester-a death is a death and just because it happens all at once it is more horrific, not more tragic, just more news worthy.

In assaults involving force, sexual incidents, burglary and motor vehicle thefts, Australia ranked highest of all countries surveyed

Since it is apparent that Aussies don't know how to use there tallywackers should we ban them?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Anyway you know I was being silly, but I am making a larger point there is a problem in society, what is causing the rash of copy cat massacres. What is wrong with our youth, I don't know

which figure in that report do you think shows oz as the highest? simple answer for this one thanks. i couldnt find anything that reflected what you say is all and am worried your imaginative interpretation of words and numbers might be giving us a bum steer. admittedly i only scanned through.

and then there was this....

Summary and Conclusions

Australia is a relatively high risk country as far as crime is concerned as this cross-national survey indicates. Happily, we are not in the same league as the USA.....


seems an odd conclusion if what you say is true. well looking forward to what figure/table etc those stats come from anyway.

then again it could all just be a desperate (and inaccurate?) lash out at another country to try and feel better about the massive problem within your own. i'd avoid that. it may make you briefly feel better but its not really a long term solution to the problem you have there.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:53:39 AM by soapit »