Author Topic: 2012/2013 English Premier League  (Read 15606 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #165 on: November 15, 2012, 04:02:05 PM »
Who gives a toss about international football?

English players certainly don't.


Offline imedi

  • Staring at the Sun
  • **
  • Posts: 1308
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2012, 05:04:37 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'll stick my neck out and presume you're talking Club level :)

I think the ban had a lot to do with it, we spent ten years playing catch up, but surely the EPL  has more or less dominated the Champions League for the past decade, more so than any other league anyway. We have four teams each year with a realistic chance of winning it, even outside of our top 4 Spurs, Liverpool and Everton would be solid competitors, every other league has one or two teams at best.

What I really hate is how the UEFA Cup has become a joke, that competition and the Cup Winners Cup used to be fantastic and should be worth a hell of a lot more than a run out for the reserves. Problem being that you get more money for qualifying for Champions League than you do for WINNING the Europa League!


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Great article.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I'll bet the Man Utd CEO favours clubs having to break even and see owners limited to the losses they can incur.  That effectively puts their Man City and Chelsea rivals at a disadvantage.  Having said that, it is the approach I'd like to see clubs taking.  Newcastle are a recent great example of how to run a football club properly, and in the past Mike Ashley mentioned Everton as the example of the way he'd like to run Newcastle.  It's great to see both Everton and Newcastle doing well in the premiership this season.



Yes I agree it's a very good thing, especially with all 20 clubs being in favour of something being done. It does enforce the status quo a little bit though doesn't it?

For example if Villa after 5 years of not spending and struggling but staying up decide to have a real push for Europe again, they just simply wont be able to do that? Would every club in the land just have to accept the position they were in when the rules were made and that's that? I'm not sure if that's right but that's how I read it.

It would put Man Utd at an advantage over the other big boys, except Arsenal.  The other clubs would have to up their game in developing home grown talent in their academies, and through better scouting, if they wanted to build good teams to challenge the big boys.  Yes, it would maintain the status quo, but then isn't that what we've already had for years?  I don't think it's a good idea to run up big debts in a "real push for Europe" (like what Leeds did), although a prudent club could invest it's capital reserves. 



Well that sounds fine, lets hope it works!
x2

Offline JTBaby

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4325
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2012, 07:41:27 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Who gives a toss about international football?

English players certainly don't.



Ah yes. The excuse of the not very good.


Offline DGordon1

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 3041
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #168 on: November 16, 2012, 04:58:22 AM »
Football has evolved in the past 20 years, but the British mindset hasn't. I'm a Scot and it's painfully obvious to see how far we've fallen behind the European sides in terms of basic skill, composure and technique. You can't just play at 100 miles an hour all the time or you'll come unstuck. It depresses me to see even average-poor European sides completely outplaying Scotland and it happens time and time again.

British players have good strengths that are important in any team, but unless it's complimented with skillful foreigners then we come up short. The problem is endemic in Scotland, but it's there in England too. There needs to be a change in coaching attitudes - kids need to be taught basic ball control and technique from a young age, and not just closing down and playing fearful direct football all the time.

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #169 on: November 16, 2012, 10:21:21 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Who gives a toss about international football?

English players certainly don't.



Ah yes. The excuse of the not very good.



No, it's the reason why they're not very good.


Offline DGordon1

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 3041
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #170 on: November 16, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Who gives a toss about international football?

English players certainly don't.



Ah yes. The excuse of the not very good.



No, it's the reason why they're not very good.



They tried very hard against Italy in the Euros.

Offline JTBaby

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4325
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #171 on: November 16, 2012, 11:00:47 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Who gives a toss about international football?

English players certainly don't.



Ah yes. The excuse of the not very good.



No, it's the reason why they're not very good.



They tried very hard against Italy in the Euros.

The "they don't try" Schtick is just denial.

They're just not technically sound.

They tried in Italy 90 and had  better players back then.

Ditto in euro 96. And Mexico 70.

Otherwise they've been mostly bad to mediocre.


Offline Bads316

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4226
  • Ain't nothin' but a muffin
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2012, 11:33:04 AM »
Even when we have good players, we squander them, England should of been built around Paul Scholes for the last 15 years but no, we'll stick him on the left wing and force him into retirement.

I'll never believe they don't care, if they didn't care then it's in their best interest to just not go. It's a mixture of bad management, injuries, over-hype and too much pressure from our press and media. Not to say without those things we'd win everything in sight but our performance levels would increase significantly. In all the years I've been watching football I think I could count on one hand the games in which I've seen England play well. 

There's passion there but our mistake is in our attempt at curtailing that in order to try and be more cool and continental, but we will never be that, we're psychologically wired to be the opposite which is what we should embrace. Any lack of motivation from the players is a direct result of foreign managers being the highest paid personnel in world football - with or without success.

The lethargic, seemingly uncaring performances unquestionably started with Sven and it wasn't until the last Euros that a little bit of that old England spirit returned, look at the celebrations of the players after our goals, they're not the reactions of the unmotivated or the uncaring. International football is a delicate, complicated beast and we're a long, long way off anything other than Quarter Finals but I think we're finally on the right road.  Onwards and upwards, look at Spain before the last three tournaments, far worse than we ever were, now better than anyone ever has been.

Motivation or passion is not a guarantee for success and neither is having good to great technically sound, skill-full players.


Anyway away from the painful subject of England,  is it just me or has the reaction to Ibrahimovic's goal been a tad OTT? It was good but it's being cited as the greatest ever in some articles, what a load of rubbish, I'd put about 60 odd Messi goals alone above that.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:13:07 PM by Bads316 »

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #173 on: November 16, 2012, 12:11:06 PM »
I admire your optimism for the future, Bads, but really I can't help but think it's misplaced.

English players play with and against foreign players every season in the Premiership and the Champions League and so I don't accept they are not 'technically sound' as our JTBaby contends, or if they still haven't learned anything, then they must be incredibly stupid.

I also don't buy the "mixture of bad management, injuries, over-hype and too much pressure from our press and media" excuses.  The English FA have tried a variety of coaching styles in the last two decades, from Eriksson's and Capello's continental style, to the English approach of Venables, McClaren and now Hodgson, but none have brought much success.  Injuries are just a weak excuse, as is the argument that we don't have a mid-season break in the Premiership, since it doesn't seem to have an adverse effect on foreign players' performances at international level.  I don't think there's unreasonable expectations in our nation or in the media given the calibre of players in most England setups for the last thirty years.  Even counting for 'bad luck', we should have done better than the quarter-finals or worse - except for Italia' 90 and Euro '96 - in all that time.  And blaming the salaries of over-paid England managers in recent years for a 'lack of motivation' from the players just doesn't make any sense at all.

No, I think the real answer, whether we care to admit it or not, is that England players just see international football as a way to have an occasional jolly up and break from the real business of club football, and improve their bargaining position during contract negotiations.  It also improves a players commercial opportunities, too.

I certainly don't confuse the exuberance of goal celebrations with real passion and dedication to the cause.  Some senior England players' lacklustre performances in big tournaments has been an absolute disgrace and they deserve all the approbrium they get from the media.



« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:15:08 PM by Tumbling Dice »

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #174 on: November 16, 2012, 12:23:26 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anyway away from the painful subject of England,  is it just me or has the reaction to Ibrahimovic's goal been a tad OTT? It was good but it's being cited as the greatest ever in some articles, what a load of rubbish, I'd put about 60 odd Messi goals alone above that.

I haven't seen many of Messi's goals, but I agree the reaction has been OTT.  I think it was just because it was flashy.  Rooney's scissor-kick goal against Man City was probably just as good and was scored during a much more important match.  Still, it was a great goal.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:25:01 PM by Tumbling Dice »

Offline Bads316

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4226
  • Ain't nothin' but a muffin
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #175 on: November 16, 2012, 12:51:22 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I admire your optimism for the future, Bads, but really I can't help but think it's misplaced.

English players play with and against foreign players every season in the Premiership and the Champions League and so I don't accept they are not 'technically sound' as our JTBaby contends, or if they still haven't learned anything, then they must be incredibly stupid.

I also don't buy the "mixture of bad management, injuries, over-hype and too much pressure from our press and media" excuses.  The English FA have tried a variety of coaching styles in the last two decades, from Eriksson's and Capello's continental style, to the English approach of Venables, McClaren and now Hodgson, but none have brought much success.  Injuries are just a weak excuse, as is the argument that we don't have a mid-season break in the Premiership, since it doesn't seem to have an adverse effect on foreign players' performances at international level.  I don't think there's unreasonable expectations in our nation or in the media given the calibre of players in most England setups for the last thirty years.  Even counting for 'bad luck', we should have done better than the quarter-finals or worse - except for Italia' 90 and Euro '96 - in all that time.  And blaming the salaries of over-paid England managers in recent years for a 'lack of motivation' from the players just doesn't make any sense at all.

No, I think the real answer, whether we care to admit it or not, is that England players just see international football as a way to have an occasional jolly up and break from the real business of club football, and improve their bargaining position during contract negotiations.  It also improves a players commercial opportunities, too.

I certainly don't confuse the exuberance of goal celebrations with real passion and dedication to the cause.  Some senior England players' lacklustre performances in big tournaments has been an absolute disgrace and they deserve all the approbrium they get from the media.





My optimism might very well be misplaced but what's the alternative?


The same media that tells us all we're world beaters leading up to tournaments? The Sun's headline after our World Cup Group was drawn was 'Easy' front bloody page! As if that was easy. No game for us is easy, we're a huge scalp, probably along with Brazil the biggest.

Venables had one tournament and it was incredible. To name him alongside those three is a tad unfair. I thought we had a great thing going with Hoddle.

Sven, McClown and Capello were never going to work, three huge mistakes that squandered our greatest group of talent since '66. Sven's easily one of the most inept managers I've ever seen (Just compare his set-up to Hodgson's for when we don't have the ball, hilarious!) Capello is all wrong for England but a great appointment for Russia, and Shteve, whom I personally wouldn't even want to play for.

If a football team at club level is seemingly unmotivated then what is the number one reason given for that? Every single time it's the manager. How can looking at the manager as a reason for an unmotivated player not make any sense? Surely it's the first port of call.

Blaming money isn't the answer, why did we do so much worse in the 70's & 80's - we've actually improved a great deal since then. We actually qualify these days.

What gives us the right to win anyway, are you saying that if we simply tried harder we'd win? Of course we wouldn't, it's an insult to every other team and nation.   

I think most Premiership players, English or foreign have consistently under performed at tournaments, for example RVP - rubbish for Holland. We do play a hell of a lot more in this country, not saying the lack of a winter break is the sole reason, but along with everything else it adds up. 

Success in International football is like making a great film, it's lightning in a bottle.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anyway away from the painful subject of England,  is it just me or has the reaction to Ibrahimovic's goal been a tad OTT? It was good but it's being cited as the greatest ever in some articles, what a load of rubbish, I'd put about 60 odd Messi goals alone above that.

I haven't seen many of Messi's goals, but I agree the reaction has been OTT.  I think it was just because it was flashy.  Rooney's scissor-kick goal against Man City was probably just as good and was scored during a much more important match.  Still, it was a great goal.



Agreed.






Offline JTBaby

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4325
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #176 on: November 16, 2012, 01:09:25 PM »
Anyone who thinks the top English players are as technically sound as some of their lesser paid international peers just needs to watch the Euro 2012 game against Italy.

You can make up as many "jolly up" theories as you want, fact is they give it their all and it's not good enough.

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #177 on: November 16, 2012, 01:18:03 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
My optimism might very well be misplaced but what's the alternative?

Realism.

Quote
The same media that tells us all we're world beaters leading up to tournaments? The Sun's headline after our World Cup Group was drawn was 'Easy' front bloody page! As if that was easy. No game for us is easy, we're a huge scalp, probably along with Brazil the biggest.

The media expect a lot - and so does the nation - because we have the calibre of players to go out and do the business, if only they could be bothered.

Quote
Venables had one tournament and it was incredible. To name him alongside those three is a tad unfair. I thought we had a great thing going with Hoddle.

We had the home advantage going for us in Euro '96, and perhaps fortune was smiling on us during that tournament more than others.  Luck does play a part in these things.  And I didn't rate Hoddle at all as a manager or motivator.  He antagonised the players.  He was all talk, gimmicks, and no results.

Quote
Sven, McClown and Capello were never going to work, three huge mistakes that squandered our greatest group of talent since '66. Sven's easily one of the most inept managers I've ever seen (Just compare his set-up to Hodgson's for when we don't have the ball, hilarious!) Capello is all wrong for England but a great appointment for Russia, and Shteve, whom I personally wouldn't even want to play for.

Sure, Capello was wrong for England - in retrospect.  But Eriksson and Capello had a wide range of experience and success in world football and so the FA felt that could be what previous underperforming England teams were lacking in a coach.  Eriksson turned England around after Kevin Keegan, and went on to - statistically - be the best England coach since Sir Alf Ramsay.  One could also say we were 'unlucky' in some of his tournaments.  I agree that McClaren was a disaster and I knew he would be when he was appointed.  I just feel Hodgson was the most cost-effective choice of manager.

Quote
If a football team at club level is seemingly unmotivated then what is the number one reason given for that? Every single time it's the manager. How can looking at the manager as a reason for an unmotivated player not make any sense? Surely it's the first port of call.

But you said:  "Any lack of motivation from the players is a direct result of foreign managers being the highest paid personnel in world football."

How much money the manager is paid shouldn't affect the players' motivation.

Of course it's the manager's job to motivate, but ultimately it's the players who have to go out and play and deliver, which they don't do.

Quote
Blaming money isn't the answer, why did we do so much worse in the 70's & 80's - we've actually improved a great deal since then. We actually qualify these days.

Recent crops of England players are better than what they were in the 1970s.

Quote
What gives us the right to win anyway, are you saying that if we simply tried harder we'd win? Of course we wouldn't, it's an insult to every other team and nation.

The point is that we don't win - ever.  Other national teams with the same calibre, even a lower calibre, of players have won tournaments over the last thirty years.   

Offline Tumbling Dice

  • Drowning Man/Woman
  • ***
  • Posts: 22458
  • I won't pay the usual fee
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #178 on: November 16, 2012, 01:20:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anyone who thinks the top English players are as technically sound as some of their lesser paid international peers just needs to watch the Euro 2012 game against Italy.

You can make up as many "jolly up" theories as you want, fact is they give it their all and it's not good enough.

If you'd actually watched all of England's matches in tournaments over the last thirty years, you'd know that they definitely don't 'give it their all.'


Offline JTBaby

  • Elevated
  • ***
  • Posts: 4325
Re: 2012/2013 English Premier League
« Reply #179 on: November 16, 2012, 01:32:49 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anyone who thinks the top English players are as technically sound as some of their lesser paid international peers just needs to watch the Euro 2012 game against Italy.

You can make up as many "jolly up" theories as you want, fact is they give it their all and it's not good enough.

If you'd actually watched all of England's matches in tournaments over the last thirty years, you'd know that they definitely don't 'give it their all.'



No what I see are players who aren't as good as the media or fans think they are.

There are very few if any English players a neutral fan would name as being the best or even top 3 in the world at their position.