Take It Or Leave It: Part 2 (For the U2 LTD. Camp) + Reddit

[BackFromTheDead]

*deep, dark, laugh*

Hello friends.  Hello Jick.  I see you're still here.

For some senior @U2 forum members, you may remember a thread I created a few years ago called "Take It Or Leave It".  What was the thread about?  Well, if you search it, you will find it.  But additionally, it's interesting, that at the time, it was the first of its kind.  I can't help but think... I'm responsible for imaginary friend's sentiments in the "Can U2 ever come back" thread. 

"not another one of these threads."

Oh?

Well, you see imaginary friend, perhaps eluding to what U2 is becoming--an image or existence ONLY in my mind--that's just it.  U2 needs these threads.  U2 needs these threads more than anything else.  They need to know what they're up against.  And that's why I'm here today.  That's why I've returned.  Like a hologram video being played from a droid in Tatooine.  Things have only gotten worse since TIOLI Part 1, and the more time eats up the calender, and the more time album release dates are set back, the worse, and worse, and worse it gets.  I'm here today to help save them from suffering the fate of Alderanne.  Another one of these threads?  Tell me imaginary friend, is your user name an allusion to what you want?  Do you want U2 to be DEAD!?

***light, airy, television station communication broadcast pause music***

BUT WHERE'S THE FUN PART?

There is no fun part.  But the other part to this thread, before I get back to U2 and the new album, is Reddit.  I'm not sure if everyone knows what Reddit is, but... I'm going to assume that you do.

If you already use Reddit, or ever thought of registering, the U2 sub-reddit on the site could definitely use more users, and activity as a whole.  Not trying to stray people away from @U2, but joining the U2 sub-reddit would have a two-prong effect.

1)  It would get more U2 fandom out there in the interwebz

2)  U2 is actually one Reddit's most hated things.  Though there is a fan base on Reddit, U2 is mostly hated by the majority of regular visitors, whom, make up for the collective opinion of what is deemed "cool" and "acceptable" as good forms of art and culture in the world; deeper ties in North America (having the majority of its users from America).  None the less, subscribing to the sub-reddit, and becoming actively involved there, would also obviously see the number of U2 fans rise, but it help overturn the tide that is just demolishing U2's legacy day after day.

The url for Reddit's main page is:  www.reddit.com
The url for the U2 sub-reddit is:  www.reddit.com/r/u2band

Once logged in, you simply click the subscribe button in the U2 sub-reddit.  Currently, there are 19 users.  This is scant.  Let's up that sh** and, get people talkin', as Bono would say.

***Back to TIOLI Part 2***

I suppose I shouldn't make this too long, for I get the impression this is an overly discussed theme on @U2.  Fine.

I'll be less dramatic, and just get to the point.

Listen... listen...

If this sort of topic doesn't concern you think and it's a big waste of time, that's great.  Clearly, PLENTY of U2 fans disagree with you.  So as the adage goes, "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it all", I would like alter that slightly.  If this thread doesn't concern you, don't say anything!  If you comment, have it constructive and conducive TO the topic, not ABOUT the topic as a whole.  Thanks.

My absolute sentiments from the last thread stand.  I will reiterate them.

Take it or leave it (U2 LTD. Camp):  U2 need to stop making Elevation siblings.
Take it or leave it (U2 LTD. Camp):  U2's next single, needs to abso-freakin-lutely be an amazing song.  It needs to be so good you can see U2 haters twitch as they try to find something negative to say about it.  The next U2 single that takes the air-waves as U2's first song in 3 (or 4, or 5) years that people hear, needs to be, HA-MAZING!  No less.  NO, LESS!

Those two sentiments stand.  They are absolute.  Take note, U2 and U2 camp.

This is partially why U2 is taking their sweet ass time.  They know this.  They know they can't come back with a Get On Your Boots.  That would be suicide.  They know this.  They've used up their credibility.  Do you know what I mean?  They've used up their cred.  They can no longer coast on the U2 brand.  If they actually want to people to think they are holy like they were in the early 90s, it's time to pull up the socks, and jesus christ, make some good ass music.

Yes.  Music.  This is the tricky part.  Clearly, I think U2 is capable of such a task that is ahead of them, but the longer the wait, the bigger that hill gets.  'cause man... the music.

Music today, is just.

Dude, U2 need to come back with something CRAZY man.  In the last year music evolved so much.  SO MUCH.  It's insane.  I have a music blog (not going to plug it; not why I'm here), and this summer I went to Bonnaroo and Osheaga.  And if I had the cash, I'd be going to ACL.  Anyway, the music that's out today man, at this point, makes NLOTH, and at parts, 'Bomb, look like music made my Rock n Roll dinosaurs.  The exact species U2 has declared many times they wish not to be.

I've always been involved with music really, but running a music blog and attending the two festivals this past summer, it's very hard to see U2 as a contemporary to these artists.  And by very hard, I'm going to say AT THIS CURRENT STATE, U2 is not a contemporary.  Bono once said in an interview (to the effect of):  When I look at the Killers, I see them as contemporary.  We neither look up, nor down to them.  We are together in the same room.

At the time, it was true.  Today?  Not a chance.

At this current state, U2 would be out of place at Bonnaroo.  Just the people, and the music, and the atmosphere, and the culture...  I don't know what to say, U2 doesn't fit in with it.  And the reason?  As Bono once said in an interview in '96 or '97 on the current state of the music industry then:  The records are boring.

Ironic, isn't it?

Not that I think that any of these artists hold even an unlit match to U2's atomic-bomb of a legacy, but when I think of Skrillex, Danny Brown, Ziggurat, Flying Lotus, Animal Collective, to name a few... this... this music is just so crazy... it's effin' crazy man.  It's on another level.  Heck, it's on 3 other levels.  It's just so far out of the realm of pop-rock that U2's been dishing out for the last decade, it doesn't even compare.  It's like bring a knife to an atomic bomb fight... and U2's holding the knife!

Even music videos.  Check out any videos by Flying Lotus, Metronomy, or Death Grips.

Check out this music video:  Deathgrips - I've Seen Footage (http://youtu.be/DigtCrO77L8) (NOTE the song as well)
Then, check out just the song Deathgrips - Hacker (http://youtu.be/uoZgZT4DGSY) (NOTE the album art)

I'd like to highlight the song by saying:  WTF.  But, it's one of my favorite songs of the year.  It reminds me of Mofo.  But the thing is, it's craaazier than Mofo.  And dudes, this is the sh** that people are listening to these days.  This is the stuff that gets people goin' off the deep end at music festivals.

Do you think for a million year, you're gonna see a bunch of people in their 20s and 30s going nuts to Get On Your Boots?!

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Fat effin' chance.

Hell, here's another heart crushing fact.  Between the time I found @U2 (around 1998) to NLOTH era, I checked @U2 daily.  I, checked @U2, daily.  For over 10 years, I visited @U2, dai-ly.  Got that?  Okay.  You ready?  (sorry Matt; not your fault).  In the last year, year and a half, I proooobably visited @U2 once a month.  That's right.  Once, a freakin' month.  That's a 12 times a year.  DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW RIDICULOUS THAT IS!?  I checked up on my favorite band, multiple times a day (MULTIPLE!) for over 10 years, and in the last 18 months, I could not have been bothered to visit @U2 more than a paltry dozen to two dozen times.  And do you know why?  It's because I'm BORED!  I'm bored with U2 and I'm bored with U2's new album news!  I'm not excited to hear about their new album.  I'm genuinely, not even in the slightest, not excited.  Why?  WHY SHOULD I?  We always joke how Bono says "Edge is on fire-haha".  Haha?  No haha.  IT'S NOT FUNNY ANYMORE.  DUDE, BONO,  SERIOUSLY.  STOP IT.  STOP SAYING YOU GUYS ARE ON and FIRE MAKING YOUR BEST WORK.  JUST MAKE IT ALREADY!  FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, JUST GOD DAMN RECORD IT, AND RELEASE IT!  STOP TALKING ABOUT REAPPLYING FOR THE JOB, AND JUST SHOW UP TO WORK ALREADY!

"not another one of these threads"

NO!  NO!--well actually, YES! YES!  ANOTHER ONE OF THESE GOD DAMN THREADS.  YES!  Because that's what U2 needs to light the fire under their ass to start making music that will compete with the sh** that's out there.  It's not funny anymore.  It's not cute.  I'm not interested in what Bono, or a producer, or a friend of the band has to say about your album.  I'm serious man.  That's why I visit @U2 once a month.  I don't care anymore.  It's not cute.  It's not funny.  For the first time ever, for the real first time ever, I'm losing god damn interest in you man.  IT'S NOT FUNNY, and I'm not interested.  Do you know what I am interested in?  A NEW ALBUM.  A new album.  A NEW ALBUM.  I'm interested in a new god, damn, album.  I'm not necessarily pushing you to make an album.  I'm not necessarily demanding a new album tomorrow like I'm entitled (though, the longer they push the album back the more people forget about them), I'm just tired of news of new material, and then being handed something YEARS later, and, speaking of Boots specifically, getting handed a piece of crap.

Take It Or Leave It:  U2 can come back.  But make it quick, and make it swift, as things have only worsened since 2009.  And whatever they do, you better knock the F****** socks off of every man, woman and child when you come back with that lead single and album.

That is all.

[JTBaby]

Reddit is a cesspool.

[Johnny Feathers]

I whole-heartedly agree with most of this post, though I obviously haven't had as much sugar this evening.

However, U2 have almost always been uncool, at least since they hit the mainstream.  Achtung Baby was the closest the band ever came to being considered cool, and there were still arbiters of cool at the time (Spin, etc.) who crapped on them.  Even Rolling Stone simultaneously voted Zoo TV best and worst (?) tour of the year back in 1992 or 93.

Also, while I do appreciate the sentiment, trying to encourage people to flock to a site (or whatever Reddit is...) to change popular opinion won't really work, I'm afraid.  I'd say, as U2 fans, get ready to be labelled uncool again when their next album comes out.  Just hope it's good enough to justify that. 

[U2_fan8 [aka U28]]

You lost all credibility in my book when you misspelled "Alderaan."

[BackFromTheDead]

Just like I did with TIOLI 3 years ago, I'll respond to each post, and I will do so with as much specificity as I can.

@JTBaby:

While I'll admit, the 'hivemind' of Reddit can, but not always, have their head up their ass times; I too have experienced its pitfalls.  The truth of the matter is, what social media internet forum does not include forms of cliquing?  There's cliquing even here. 

While Reddit shouldn't be anyone's go-to source for anything, the same can be said for everything else.  That would only lead a person to being one dimensional.  I can only imagine a person that only fits themselves into one category can't be too... not necessarily intelligent, just, open to things and/or interesting; how's that?  Two quick examples would be companies such as Google or Apple that try to make everything run under them.  Like Google trying to make Google the one-stop for everything.  It never works out like that.  Or Facebook allowing you to "log in" into sites everywhere you go.  Another Star Wars reference:  "The more you tighten your grip the more star systems will slip through your fingers".  In this case, social media domination.  It's good to mix and match. 

And in that sense, of mixing and matching, if you ignore the bad apples and use Reddit to its full potential--one thing is for certain, its self proclaimed title as the Front Page of the Internet--I have to agree.  It is.  They certainly are the front page of the internet (of the world).  So, Reddit is not a cesspool.  Reddit is a great source for art, film, music, advice, etc.  Whether you want to use it or not, or join in on the conversation on the U2 subreddit is a whole other story that is entirely up to you.

@Johnny Feathers:

I'd be interested to know which parts you don't agree with.

While I was a baby/child during U2's height of popularity (87 - 92), I have vague memories of the latter bits.  And seeing friends' brothers and sisters year books... I'm not so sure U2 was uncool.  From what I remember in the early 90s, it was U2 and Nirvana.  They were the coolest bands (brands) on the market.  Additionally, I just don't see how U2 was uncool.  They were the only band that mattered in the 80s.  I suppose I'd have to ask some older people I know what it was like... but I get the feeling they were popular and respected back then.

But, for the moment I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and let's go with that. 

Sure, they were just uncool then as they were now.  It's not about making them cool again.  It's about getting good music from them.  I believe they can make it.  (again, this isn't going into territory where I deserve music from them.  They want to make music and pander.  Which, is fine.  They've said it many times about getting younger audiences and going after the pop charts.  So if that's what they want to do, I'm here, with all of you, to help them kill 2 birds with one stone.  We get good music, they get on the charts).

They will be pushing even their die-hards away with another crappy release.  That's the thing.  It's not like "oh, well... forget fairweather fans or non-die hards... the die-hards will like anything we put out next".  No.  That's not true.  I won't like just anything they put out next.  I like 4 songs off of NLOTH.  Those four, I think are close to 10s, but otherwise, the album is quite dismal.  Couple 7s, and just too many that score well below 5.  Stand Up Comedy, Crazy, White As Snow are the 3 that are just...................... whaaaaaaaat the f*** is going on here?  Like what IS this man.  Stand Up Comedy is the worst.  It's one of their worst songs ever.  Like, Death Grips - Hacker, or, U2 - Stand Up Comedy.  Dude.  Doesn't, even, compare.  I've never not liked that many U2 songs on an album.  In fact, there's a few on Boy, 1 or 2 on Bomb... Grace is horrible.... that's pretty much it.  I like every single other album-songs U2 has.  NLOTH was like a kid with parkinsons trying to hit a pinhole in the middle of a sand storm.  Off the mark, and not even close.

Okay, I digress.  (I apologize, I'm figuratively running through my thoughts here typing as fast as my thoughts are churning out).

In terms of flocking to Reddit to change opinion... it's not just to change opinion.  I really enjoy the Reddit community.  It's, clearly, way diverse.  Like back in the day when everyone was talking Lost on the forums here.  On Reddit, you get sport, hobby, vocation crossovers, parents talking to teenagers.  It's also much easier to link to things.  Anyway...

@U2_fan8:

You wanna know the funny thing.  I googled it.  I must have copied and pasted the first thing I saw (which, though, I think was from a WOOKIEpedia link).  Bah.  :p

[U2_fan8 [aka U28]]

Jeez, just when you think you can trust a Star-Wars themed online encyclopedia!

[Zoonationalist]

As per my qualifications as the Zoonationalist, I can certify that this thread is correct, in its entirety.

But I think the "magic U2" (Boy-Pop) is gone. It probably won't ever come back. The fact that they were willing to sacrifice the overall "No Line" album by placing three generic radio shoe-ins right in the middle of the album (IGCIIDGCT, Boots, Stand Up Comedy)--which succeeded only in destroying the flow of the album-- demonstrates that the band will prioritize easily-digestable radio singles over a coherent art piece. Their perception has changed.

U2 are better than that-- at least they were. But perhaps they've forgotten? Or perhaps it just doesn't matter so much to them anymore.

The Unforgettable Fire has been forgotten.
The Joshua Tree has been hacked down.
Zooropa's "streets paved with gold" have long since been destroyed.
Pop's golden arches have been sold.
The Passengers took the last train out of town.
The War was lost.
October's trees have been stripped bare.
The Boy has done a "disappearing act."
Rattle and Hum is now "ho hum".

U2 pleaded: "Let me in the sound!"

There came the reply: "Thus far, and no farther."


Time to listen to Achtung Baby.

[BackFromTheDead]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN ZOONATIONALIST!  STAND UP COMEDY IS ONE OF THEIR BEST SONGS SINCE 'ONE'!!!

Yeh.  Right.

Well said.

If U2 really throw it all away, they're gonna tarnish their legacy, and perhaps even remove large chunks of their good parts.  Very sad.

[jick]

My absolute sentiments from the last thread stand.  I will reiterate them.

Take it or leave it (U2 LTD. Camp):  U2 need to stop making Elevation siblings.
Take it or leave it (U2 LTD. Camp):  U2's next single, needs to abso-freakin-lutely be an amazing song.  It needs to be so good you can see U2 haters twitch as they try to find something negative to say about it.  The next U2 single that takes the air-waves as U2's first song in 3 (or 4, or 5) years that people hear, needs to be, HA-MAZING!  No less.  NO, LESS!

Those two sentiments stand.  They are absolute.  Take note, U2 and U2 camp.

When did U2 ever make Elevation siblings? The Edge never used that guitar effect to that extent ever in any other U2 song.  If you mean how the song was marketed, I don't think U2 ever gave away a song to a comic superhero soundtrack since Elevation - although that might have been a good idea since superhero comic movies are raking it in now.

How do you define an "amazing" single? If it is just something to suit your own aural pleasure then that is purely subjective and different from person to person. If you are talking about charts, then you are saying U2 have to make music to win the young audience.  Because whether you like it or not, except for the hardcore fans - U2's audience from the Joshua Tree and Achtung eras don't probably listen to radio anymore seeking the newest songs. Most people of that era just listen to their own music or listen to their kids play the kids music.

U2 have earned their market niche already for their aging fanbase.  Singles is key only to winning new fans but there is little money to be made with new fans. They spend a dollar per song on U2 to put in their mp3 players then after 2 weeks they don't listen to it anymore. Even worse, they might download it illegally.

U2's bread and butter now are their concerts. Their aging fanbase are working people now. They are people who can afford.  But these are also people who want to hear the "hits".  Even wondered why U2's never dropped "With Or Without You" from their setlist? It was their biggest hit ever in America.  So a nostalgia tour for millions and getting something over $200 per patron - now that is more income generating that trying to make a new hit for the disposable generation.  Not to mention that making a "hit" is time consuming and always a risk - especially if you are a band of U2's age and reputation. Even an "amazing" song can potentially be dismissed by this generation of listeners since it is made by an "old band" and won't be given a chance.

Of course U2 are still recording a new album. They will probably record an album just to test how they stand with the new generation.  They just want to see if they can still compete with the young musicians.  They want to know if they are still relevant. Maybe they are just creatures of habit and are used to making new albums. Or maybe they just don't want to become what they dissed the Rolling Stones about before - a nostalgia act. But will they rush it? But will there be sense of urgency? Will they still record an album as if their lives depended on it?

I am sure U2 have been getting their financial reports from their team of accountants.  And my best guess is that they make most of their income nowadays in touring and their back catalogue.  Right now, their lives don't depend on any new album.  They don't need to rush it.  They are doing just fine and cashing in more with their old songs.

Personally, I look forward to the new album. It's always nice to hear something new - especially for the hardcore guys like myself who have listened to every U2 song a gazillion times - from the hits to the obscure rarities.  But do I think they have something to surpass their previous albums in unit sales, chart rankings, or Grammy nominations? I doubt it.

Cheers,

J

[Moostache]

I became a U2 fan in 1983.  Sunday Bloody Sunday was the song, and I was all of 12 years old at the time.  By the time The Unforgettable Fire was released in 1984, I was hooked completely.  The early MTV airing of Under a Blood Red Sky-era videos led me to explore the album and the videos, but it was the songs that I found that really reeled me in for good - Sunday Bloody Sunday, New Year's Day, Seconds, "40", I Will Follow, Stories For Boys, Out of Control, 11 O'clock Tick Tock....these songs became the backbone of U2's touring era from 1984 - 1990, only to be supplemented with Unforgettable Fire / Joshua Tree staples like With or Without You, Streets, Still Haven't Found, Bad, Pride, MLK, Bullet The Blue Sky...  The band has NEVER replicated that early string of successes...they have successfully augmented it for decades, but the foundation of what most casual fans recognize as "U2" was laid between '80-'86 and has featured two periods of addition (Zoo TV - Zooropa from 1990-1994 and ATYCLB/HTDAAB from 2000-2004).  The calendar has not seen anything added to the legacy since 2010, and as this period of time between albums in the past has been when U2 was able to augment the set list with new tracks and memorable albums...maybe it happens one more time, but they have already survived as a band longer than anyone thought possible, so pushing it into a fourth decade of album relevance may not be in the cards.

U2 has already exceeded my wildest dreams in terms of making albums worth listening to - far surpassing every single act I was listening to in the 1980's and 1990's and still drawing enough interest from me in my fourth decade as a fan of theirs to post this reply...whether or not they ever again become "popular" is irrelevant to me.  I have had new U2 music accompany me from grade school to middle school (1985's UF), from middle school to high school (1987's JT and 1989's R&H), from high school to college (1991's AB and 1993's Zooropa), from singles scene to married life (1997's Pop), and from married with no kids to parent (2000's ATYCLB and 2004's HTDAAB)....sadly for me and the band, their last album was a less positive transition as the album released the same month that I lost my job and the economic world beneath my feet evaporated for a time, permanently marking NLOTH as an album with very negative personal connotations and memories - a not altogether unfamiliar phenomena world-wide as NLOTH had the horrible luck of releasing into a world gripped by the worst economic down turn in 80 years!

I am also lucky enough to have had U2 be one of my first concert going experiences (JT - Soldier Field Chicago, 1987) and then was able to take my teenage daughter to her first concert in the 360 show in St. Louis last year.  She actually only knows U2 from Beautiful Day on....aside from hearing me play the albums and bootlegs incessantly, but while she likes their music, she is also a teenage girl (14 now) and she can't she guys in their 50's who are OLDER than her dad the same way she sees One Direction.  More than anything else, that was the end of U2 as a pop act...Bono as a "sexy rock god" frontman had a lot of cache for 15 years from 1980 to 1995 and he was even a bit of a late20's / early-30's mom dream for another 10 after that from 1995 to 2005 (call it nostalgia for the female fans of the earlier years if you will)...but NOW?  No chance.  Bono is a rich, old white guy.  He is about as edgy as his pals Warren Buffet or Bill Gates in the eyes of the youngest generation. 

In short, U2 is no different than their original fanbase at this point - decades removed from youth and while older and wiser, also doomed to the reality that while older people make all the money and decisions, younger people set the cultural zeitgeist and determine what is cool or popular and that can't be bought, sold or dictated, no matter how much the older generations wish it were so.  Frankly, I was amazed that U2 was able to pull it off twice already, I just do not see a third time in the cards.  I hope to get another U2 album before the band pulls the plug for good, but as the months and years keep rolling by I grow less and less confident that we will even get that.  I have a feeling that there will be a U2 farewell tour, but it won't be in support of a new album, it will be a career retrospective and true farewell.  I won't miss it for the world, but it will still make me very sad on the day its announced.