Author Topic: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk  (Read 1305 times)

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Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 02:59:55 PM »
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if you think the IMF is really an impartial and uninterested agent in World economic affairs, I wonder if it's even worth arguing the case...


Many people whose country’s been bailed out by the IMF are unhappy with the conditions the IMF imposed on their country.  But without the rescue loans many of those countries would be sunk.

Offline So Cruel

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 03:47:07 PM »
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Drummer Boy, for the last decade there have been many 9/11 conspiracy theories that have all been debunked. Like JTBaby, i'm not gonna over that old arguement again. It may be new to you but it has been put to rest a long time ago.

You try to come across as the nice guy by saying "you're not trying to outsmart anyone" or "i'm not trying to win an arguement" but then you write stuff like "What never ceases to amaze me is how many people keep buying those manipulations" or "If you wanna be a happy man, keep believing everything the Government and the media tells you. If you want to know how the world really works, you can start by watching.." or "..not allow themselves to be manipulated by the media and the Government. " So you try to be nice but then tell us that we are sheep being manipulated and you can't believe that we are buying all these manipulations.

You come in touting people to listen to Castro and Ahmadinejad, but maybe you should look a little closer into their regimes.

Castro (along with Che) killed thousands of Catholics, artists, homesexuals and basically anyone who didn't agree with them when he took over Cuba.

Ahmadinejad and the Iranians killed hundreds in the Iranian protests in 2009 - 2010. They attacked students in universities, wouldn't let hospitals register the dead, tortured prisoners, destroyed property, etc..

Now these may be the people and regimes you look up to, but please don't ask us to read or listen to what these animals have to say about America/the West.

I never said I "look up" to Cuba, or Iran. I simply pointed out that your perception of both is heavily influenced by your Government's agenda. As is the perception of the atrocities your Government has done to its own citizens, not to mention people from other countries.

I don't know which other words could be used to state these things. There's no way of saying them without sounding like a smart-*ss, but that is really not my intention. I'm looking for the truth, and in this case, the consequences of "finding out the truth" could be enormous; for you, me, and a lot of other people.

Both JTBaby and you seem convinced that I'm talking crap, or that the source I cited is crap. You tell me those theories have been debunked, but no one here has provided a single reasonable argument against the avalanche of evidence that clearly shows 9/11 was a fake. And, like I've previously stated, that's no small issue; neither for Americans, nor for citizens of other countries.

The theories you claim to have been debunked, were debunked precisely by the one source I'm suggesting you shouldn't trust. The collapse of Building 7, and the absolute silence about it, that alone should be enough to make you doubt what the Government says. The arguments they used, to debunk those theories, were so weak you probably can't even remember them, or so unclear you can't even state them. Otherwise you would have brought them up immediately.

Look mate, there's a lot to say about 9/11, Iran, Cuba, and many other subjects. But you seem to have accepted the "official explanation" from your Government, for all of them. That's your choice. If you ever want to hear other voices, we still have uncensored access to a lot of them, through the Internet.

And one last thing. You are a Christian, right?

Jesus Christ made it clear that the Devil has a lot of power in this world. I think Kennedy's speech about "secret societies", and what happened to him later, along with some of those "crazy conspiracy theories" over the Internet, provide a pretty good hint of where the Devil's power lies.

Fortunately, Jesus Christ also made it clear that whatever happens to us, in this world, is insignificant, when compared to the recompense that awaits good people on the other side. I believe you are a good person, and I try my best to be one too, perhaps that's really all one should focus on, since that's where we can really "make a difference".


My perception on Castro and Iran is based on fact.

It is a fact that Castro and Che killed thousands of people that didn't agree with them when they took over Cuba. They didn't kill them in a war, they murdered them because they were Catholics, artists, gay, etc...This is a fact, not some wild theory.

It is a fact that in 2009 - 2010 the Iranian Government killed their own people in the protests. They wouldn't let hospitals register the dead, they went into university dorms to round up protesters, they tortured and killed prisoners. This is fact. Once again it is not some wild theory.

Now in my country (Canada) and in the country that's a half hour drive south of me (America) we are allowed to voice our opinions, even if our governments don't like them, and we don't have to worry about getting killed for it.

I am Catholic and if Jesus were alive today I'm pretty sure he would be disappointed almost every country (including America and Canada), but he definately wouldn't be happy with whats gone on in Iran or Cuba in the last 50 years.


Offline Drummer Boy

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2012, 05:31:34 PM »
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if you think the IMF is really an impartial and uninterested agent in World economic affairs, I wonder if it's even worth arguing the case...


Many people whose country’s been bailed out by the IMF are unhappy with the conditions the IMF imposed on their country.  But without the rescue loans many of those countries would be sunk.

Of course those countries were unhappy... the loans were not handled to "save" those countries, they were handled to "enslave" such countries for decades on end. And the crisis those countries were facing, were a direct result of policies installed and promoted by the same people who made money from those loans.

I'm sorry TD, but you obviously have no clue on how the IMF works, the interests it pursues, or whom it works for. No point in even arguing this with you. Once again, information is available if you want to seek it, and consider what I'm saying.

About what a Central Bank does, and the way the IMF works:
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Offline So Cruel

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 06:18:47 PM »
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if you think the IMF is really an impartial and uninterested agent in World economic affairs, I wonder if it's even worth arguing the case...


Many people whose country’s been bailed out by the IMF are unhappy with the conditions the IMF imposed on their country.  But without the rescue loans many of those countries would be sunk.

Of course those countries were unhappy... the loans were not handled to "save" those countries, they were handled to "enslave" such countries for decades on end. And the crisis those countries were facing, were a direct result of policies installed and promoted by the same people who made money from those loans.

I'm sorry TD, but you obviously have no clue on how the IMF works, the interests it pursues, or whom it works for. No point in even arguing this with you. Once again, information is available if you want to seek it, and consider what I'm saying.

About what a Central Bank does, and the way the IMF works:
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Drummer Boy, you actually posted a link to Zeitgeist! That painfully bad piece of propoganda was debunked a long time ago. I read that even the director is stepping back from many of his claims after they were proven wrong.

TD, don't even bother opening his youtube link; it's a wasted minute of your life you'll never get back.

Offline So Cruel

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 06:33:58 PM »
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My perception on Castro and Iran is based on fact.

It is a fact that Castro and Che killed thousands of people that didn't agree with them when they took over Cuba. They didn't kill them in a war, they murdered them because they were Catholics, artists, gay, etc...This is a fact, not some wild theory.

It is a fact that in 2009 - 2010 the Iranian Government killed their own people in the protests. They wouldn't let hospitals register the dead, they went into university dorms to round up protesters, they tortured and killed prisoners. This is fact. Once again it is not some wild theory.

Now in my country (Canada) and in the country that's a half hour drive south of me (America) we are allowed to voice our opinions, even if our governments don't like them, and we don't have to worry about getting killed for it.

I am Catholic and if Jesus were alive today I'm pretty sure he would be disappointed almost every country (including America and Canada), but he definately wouldn't be happy with whats gone on in Iran or Cuba in the last 50 years.

Oh, please, you keep eluding the subject of 9/11, and trying to change the subject to Iran and Cuba. What you think of Iran and Cuba, once again, is exactly what you have been taught to think. Yes, of course there were crimes, do you know what they were facing? Did you know that Batista, the dictator Castro deposed, was a puppet of the U.S. Government? Did you know that Cuba was then a republic of banana collectors, and now has the best Doctors in the world? Have you ever wondered why the cruel embargo that the USA imposed on them still goes on, in spite of most countries on the planet being against it? (except for the USA, needless to say).

Have you ever actually heard, or considered, the other version?

Have you ever read what Fidel Castro has to say? His version?

I know you haven't, and I know you won't. So please stop bringing up the subject, if you're not willing to consider both sides.

And Jesus is alive today.

One of the downsides of using the Cross (which He never asked to be remember with; He provided a very clear way for His disciples to remember Him), is that it subconsciously makes you think Jesus is dead. He is alive today, and He still speaks today. Would it be worth it to even suggest where you can find some of His latest words?

Well, one can always hope. Here it is, if you want to check it:
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I don't elude anything about 9/11. I've stated that i'm not about to get into an arguement over it with a 9/11 conspiracy believer because thats been done many times in the past and has been debunked. You go on and keep believing if you want.

Whether Cuba has a great medical system or not does not absolve Castro of being the murderer that he is. When he gained power he murdered thousands. I don't care if they cure cancer in Cuba, he's still a murdering animal. Castro let the Russians place their nukes in Cuba. Did he think the Americans were gonna be overjoyed by that move? As long as Castro remained in power the Americans had every right to place that embargo.

You're right, Jesus is alive today. Once I made that original post I was going to make that change but my daughter woke up from her nap.

Offline Borack

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 06:53:11 PM »
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This is an eloquent and accurate series of points. I'd encourage everone to think critically and rationally about world events, and to and seek to be a contrarian and a concerned citizen ... but I try not to demean others who also have factual and direct insights into events and outcomes - good or bad. As for DT's notion that his country, Argentina, would likely align itself with China and a few others against the US and its economic allies ... well good luck with that one.  Argentina has already suffered enough with internal political incompetence and the inappropriate economic prescriptions of entities like the IMF. 

While not directly linked to this topic, this documentary film provides some interesting details about the financial difficulties associated with the IMF's involvement in (and inappropriate prescriptions for) Argentina, as well as some other interesting ideas. Worth watching if you've got some time.

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OMG, another endless topic...

Well, I'm exhausted right now, but if you think the IMF is really an impartial and uninterested agent in World economic affairs, I wonder if it's even worth arguing the case...
No, its not worth arguing "the case", as the IMF is not impartial and uninterested, nor did I claim it was.  In the first section of the documentary at the 4 minute mark of the video, it makes it clear that Menem's rapid implementation of IMF's policies amplified or exacerbated Argentina's economic and political problems, even if it might not have created them.  Keep well everyone, whether you're a conspiracy theorist or not.

Offline Drummer Boy

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 07:05:47 PM »
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This is an eloquent and accurate series of points. I'd encourage everone to think critically and rationally about world events, and to and seek to be a contrarian and a concerned citizen ... but I try not to demean others who also have factual and direct insights into events and outcomes - good or bad. As for DT's notion that his country, Argentina, would likely align itself with China and a few others against the US and its economic allies ... well good luck with that one.  Argentina has already suffered enough with internal political incompetence and the inappropriate economic prescriptions of entities like the IMF. 

While not directly linked to this topic, this documentary film provides some interesting details about the financial difficulties associated with the IMF's involvement in (and inappropriate prescriptions for) Argentina, as well as some other interesting ideas. Worth watching if you've got some time.

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OMG, another endless topic...

Well, I'm exhausted right now, but if you think the IMF is really an impartial and uninterested agent in World economic affairs, I wonder if it's even worth arguing the case...
No, its not worth arguing "the case", as the IMF is not impartial and uninterested, nor did I claim it was.  In the first section of the documentary at the 4 minute mark of the video, it makes it clear that Menem's rapid implementation of IMF's policies amplified or exacerbated Argentina's economic and political problems, even if it might not have created them.  Keep well everyone, whether you're a conspiracy theorist or not.

Absolutely right. Menem was a complete sell out, working for foreign interests, and his own pockets. His sin? He followed IMF recipes to the letter, and the result was a disaster. I think you just proved my point.

Offline Joe90usa

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 07:06:53 PM »
I have a couple of conspiracy theories that I favor as potentially being legit, but because someone claims it is so does not make it true. I think there is a lot of truth in this:

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

1. Arrogance. They are always fact-seekers, questioners, people who are trying to discover the truth: sceptics are always "sheep", patsies for Messrs Bush and Blair etc.

2. Relentlessness. They will always go on and on about a conspiracy no matter how little evidence they have to go on or how much of what they have is simply discredited. (Moreover, as per 1. above, even if you listen to them ninety-eight times, the ninety-ninth time, when you say "no thanks", you'll be called a "sheep" again.) Additionally, they have no capacity for precis whatsoever. They go on and on at enormous length.

3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they're pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.

4. Fondness for certain stock phrases. These include Cicero's "cui bono?" (of which it can be said that Cicero understood the importance of having evidence to back it up) and Conan Doyle's "once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth". What these phrases have in common is that they are attempts to absolve themselves from any responsibility to produce positive, hard evidence themselves: you simply "eliminate the impossible" (i.e. say the official account can't stand scrutiny) which means that the wild allegation of your choice, based on "cui bono?" (which is always the government) is therefore the truth.

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

7. Inability to withdraw. It's a rare day indeed when a conspiracy theorist admits that a claim they have made has turned out to be without foundation, whether it be the overall claim itself or any of the evidence produced to support it. Moreover they have a liking (see 3. above) for the technique of avoiding discussion of their claims by "swamping" - piling on a whole lot more material rather than respond to the objections sceptics make to the previous lot.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

10. It's always a conspiracy. And it is, isn't it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.

Offline Drummer Boy

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 07:07:26 PM »
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I don't elude anything about 9/11. I've stated that i'm not about to get into an arguement over it with a 9/11 conspiracy believer because thats been done many times in the past and has been debunked. You go on and keep believing if you want.

Whether Cuba has a great medical system or not does not absolve Castro of being the murderer that he is. When he gained power he murdered thousands. I don't care if they cure cancer in Cuba, he's still a murdering animal. Castro let the Russians place their nukes in Cuba. Did he think the Americans were gonna be overjoyed by that move? As long as Castro remained in power the Americans had every right to place that embargo.

You're right, Jesus is alive today. Once I made that original post I was going to make that change but my daughter woke up from her nap.

So Cruel, I had erased that post to correct a word and re-post it, when I noticed you had already answered.

I'm not advertising for Zeitgeist. The same information is all over the Internet. It's just more condensed, and better explained, in that movie.

Anyway... I've written way too much in here, and this has felt like arguing with Rainman, for me too.

So I'll let it go, now. There's a lot written to ponder and consider, if you want to.

Time will tell who got it wrong, and I really hope it turns out to be me.

If anyone wonders why I'm withdrawing from this, try to discuss 9/11, Iran, Cuba, and Jesus... all in a Spanish forum, or in a language that's not your own, and you'll get the picture of why these things are exhausting for me.

God bless.

Offline Drummer Boy

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 07:28:56 PM »
P.S.: If you look at the time of Joe's post, and mine, you'll see that my withdrawal had nothing to do with Joe's comment, which I've just finished reading. Interesting points, Joe. I'll consider them. Bye

Offline Inishfree

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 08:25:22 PM »
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All the more reason not to let Israel drag us into their fight.

One of the two presidential candidates is less likely to attack Iran. We elected the right one.



I agree..........President Obama is not giving Israel the green flag to start a pre-empted war with Iran.   

Offline Inishfree

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 09:11:06 PM »
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Scary stuff, for sure.

Perhaps I've been too fanatical, in this thread, about some stuff that could be scary too (luckily children aren't usually very attracted to these kind of topics). The reason for my insistence, about the lie of 9/11, is just creating awareness on the people who could make a difference.

I don't know if many Americans are "aware", about how the acts of the U.S. Government affect people around the world. The way I see it, innocent citizens of Irak, Afghanistan, and other countries (as well as many Americans), have lost their lives because of a coward manipulation, done to the "public opinion", by the Government. And now, the same method could be used to invade another country (Iran).

And what's my problem with it?

Invading or attacking Iran could bring a World War on all of us... The U.S.A., Israel and the U.K. would probably line up together, along with other countries. And China and the USSR would probably take Iran's side. And the place where I live (Latin America) would most likely be affected too, as some countries (like Colombia) would take the U.S. side, while others (like Venezuela and probably even my country, Argentina) would take the Iran-China-USSR side.

So basically this could drag us ALL into a war, that NOBODY wants.

That's why I consider it important for the American people (which is, indeed, one of the best people on Earth), to be aware of these things, and not allow themselves to be manipulated by the media and the Government.

Unlike me, some of you could end up making an actual difference, in preventing such war from happening.


Drummer Boy,

I think Americans are very aware of foriegn policies and how it effects those around the world.  One of the reasons, President Obama was re-elected.  We do not want another war.

We don't have "government sponsored" television.  We do have unlimited access to the internet and numerous news sources.   Al Jazeera, Russia Today, BBC, just to name a few.   

 

 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 09:27:17 PM by Inishfree »

Offline Borack

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Re: do we owe our lives to jfk and rfk
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 11:02:20 PM »
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If anyone wonders why I'm withdrawing from this, try to discuss 9/11, Iran, Cuba, and Jesus... all in a Spanish forum, or in a language that's not your own, and you'll get the picture of why these things are exhausting for me.

God bless.
DB ... Fair enough. I hope you find some answers, and in the meantime, I thank you for seeking to express some ideas or concerns that you have, particularly in a predominantly second language forum. Perhaps like you, I tend to stay away from these contentious events, as most people hear what suits their purpose or what reinforces their theories, and the debates bog down quickly.

Moderator Joe - I've viewed and sometimes participated in these forums for about 3 years, and can safely say that your remark is likely the best and most valuable one that I've viewed, certainly when it comes to logical processes and incredulous theories. Thanks for your sharing this, as I'll likely be citing it in future arguments or discussions where I find my counterpart's arguments rather dubious. Cheers
 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 09:52:43 AM by Borack »