Author Topic: 2014 World Cup  (Read 9313 times)

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Offline JTBaby

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2013, 03:21:19 PM »
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Some people, usually Americans not well versed in soccer, just will never see it that way.

I was watching espn at the gym thistle ong and there was some sort about a major league pitcher. Can't remember his name but he was by no means "athletic". Looked like I could easily beat him in a foot race. How can that be ? A fat slow guy pitching in major leagues ? Maybe it's because of his throwing ability and not his athleticism ? Nah, can't be......



I will bet I more "well versed in soccer" then you JT


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Some people, usually Americans not well versed in soccer, just will never see it that way.

I was watching espn at the gym thistle ong and there was some sort about a major league pitcher. Can't remember his name but he was by no means "athletic". Looked like I could easily beat him in a foot race. How can that be ? A fat slow guy pitching in major leagues ? Maybe it's because of his throwing ability and not his athleticism ? Nah, can't be......



I will bet I more "well versed in soccer" then you JT


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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Some people, usually Americans not well versed in soccer, just will never see it that way.

I was watching espn at the gym thistle ong and there was some sort about a major league pitcher. Can't remember his name but he was by no means "athletic". Looked like I could easily beat him in a foot race. How can that be ? A fat slow guy pitching in major leagues ? Maybe it's because of his throwing ability and not his athleticism ? Nah, can't be......



I will bet I more "well versed in soccer" then you JT



Highly unlikely.

Saw my first World Cup at 8 in 1970. Played it at school everywhere I lived as I travelled with my dads job. Italy, Germany, turkey, uk.

Saw many professional games in English first division in the pre EPL days, Scottish first division and scottish premier league.

But hey I've never been a self appointed soccer dad.

Saw George best play in his latter comeback days with Hibs.

Even got to kick a ball at hampden park (until a security guy stopped us)

I see most if not everyone else here who knows anything about soccer agreeing with me on the skill vs. athleticism debate.

That's because I'm right and you're , well, not.




Offline Maximus

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2013, 04:05:00 PM »
Really

You have been wrong about Ronaldo, you have been wrong about nearly e/t you said. You don't understand how the modern international teams are built. First you said teams in Europe don't recruit that young--I proved you wrong, then you said well teams in South America don't do that--I proved you wrong. Further the best teams in Africa esp the Super Eagles also take kids at a young age. So you were wrong their also

Pardon me for taking the word of people on a U2 board when I can look at Ajaxs training program, I can read what top soccer coach's say about speed and athletic ability.

Your problem is you are mired in what the game was 30-40 years ago you don't understand the modern game. You cling to the outdated idea that non athletes can compete for top honors anymore. You cited a few outliers and there are some, but it is very rare.

Bottom line if we had clubs in the US that took the top talent and athletes at age 8 and trained them for free like European and Brazilian teams do--then we would have a top international team.

Offline Bads316

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2013, 03:16:42 AM »
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But why did those clubs sign him at a young age?

Because he was exceptional with the ball at his feet. They weren't thinking 'Boy we got a hell of an athlete here, lets see if we can make a footballer out of him'.

If you read what Ajax says when the talk about young players they look at speed and natural running ability

JT- You are talking about the Brazillian Ronaldo-well then you are wrong again he was signed by a club at age 11. Where they then paid for all his training

I was talking Cristiano Ronaldo who is one of if not the best player in the world right now.

Of course they look at it, wouldn't dispute that. But in every kid that's picked up by clubs the world over, the footballer was there long before any coach got hold of them. They didn't sign Ronaldo because of how fast he could run. Barca practically had to grow Messi because he was so small but because of his freakish ability with a ball at his feet they persevered.

Running fast and running fast with a ball at your feet are two completely different things - and no, one does not simply teach someone to dribble like Best.

The point I'm trying to make Max is that you cannot take an empty shell of an athlete and turn them into a footballer. There simply isn't one example you can give of this happening. Footballers are trained to be quicker and stronger as they mature, it's never the other way round. It's like saying you can train anyone who can talk to sing like Pavarotti.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2013, 07:00:40 AM »
Itís like Snooker, really.  When I was a kid I played snooker for hours on end, first on a small table and then on a 12 footer, and I actually became quite a useful player.  Still am.  But no matter how much I practised, I didnít have the natural talent to take my game to the next level, and I donít think any amount of coaching would have achieved that.  Football skills are like brains or wit; youíre either born with it or you're not.


Offline Maximus

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2013, 01:03:19 PM »
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But why did those clubs sign him at a young age?

Because he was exceptional with the ball at his feet. They weren't thinking 'Boy we got a hell of an athlete here, lets see if we can make a footballer out of him'.

If you read what Ajax says when the talk about young players they look at speed and natural running ability

JT- You are talking about the Brazillian Ronaldo-well then you are wrong again he was signed by a club at age 11. Where they then paid for all his training

I was talking Cristiano Ronaldo who is one of if not the best player in the world right now.

Of course they look at it, wouldn't dispute that. But in every kid that's picked up by clubs the world over, the footballer was there long before any coach got hold of them. They didn't sign Ronaldo because of how fast he could run. Barca practically had to grow Messi because he was so small but because of his freakish ability with a ball at his feet they persevered.

Running fast and running fast with a ball at your feet are two completely different things - and no, one does not simply teach someone to dribble like Best.

The point I'm trying to make Max is that you cannot take an empty shell of an athlete and turn them into a footballer. There simply isn't one example you can give of this happening. Footballers are trained to be quicker and stronger as they mature, it's never the other way round. It's like saying you can train anyone who can talk to sing like Pavarotti.

What I am saying is if you take an 8 yrold kid who is athletic you give him all the coaching and esources to develop they will be good. That is what they do In Europe

Second. When I timed kids I coached in the 40 with and with out the ball. The kids that were fastest with out the ball were still the fastest with the ball. Further not every position needs to dribble the ball down field. Like you defenders or sweeper they have got to be fast and athletic--run down the striker, attack, steal the ball, clear the ball.

Offline So Cruel

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2013, 02:43:24 PM »
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But why did those clubs sign him at a young age?

Because he was exceptional with the ball at his feet. They weren't thinking 'Boy we got a hell of an athlete here, lets see if we can make a footballer out of him'.

If you read what Ajax says when the talk about young players they look at speed and natural running ability

JT- You are talking about the Brazillian Ronaldo-well then you are wrong again he was signed by a club at age 11. Where they then paid for all his training

I was talking Cristiano Ronaldo who is one of if not the best player in the world right now.

Of course they look at it, wouldn't dispute that. But in every kid that's picked up by clubs the world over, the footballer was there long before any coach got hold of them. They didn't sign Ronaldo because of how fast he could run. Barca practically had to grow Messi because he was so small but because of his freakish ability with a ball at his feet they persevered.

Running fast and running fast with a ball at your feet are two completely different things - and no, one does not simply teach someone to dribble like Best.

The point I'm trying to make Max is that you cannot take an empty shell of an athlete and turn them into a footballer. There simply isn't one example you can give of this happening. Footballers are trained to be quicker and stronger as they mature, it's never the other way round. It's like saying you can train anyone who can talk to sing like Pavarotti.

What I am saying is if you take an 8 yrold kid who is athletic you give him all the coaching and esources to develop they will be good. That is what they do In Europe

Second. When I timed kids I coached in the 40 with and with out the ball. The kids that were fastest with out the ball were still the fastest with the ball. Further not every position needs to dribble the ball down field. Like you defenders or sweeper they have got to be fast and athletic--run down the striker, attack, steal the ball, clear the ball.

Maximus, I will give you the point that if American youth were taught at a young age as well as the youth in Europe and South America then the U.S would produce much better soccer players. Good coaching at a young age is needed to help develop and maximize skills.

But I completely disagree with you that the nottion that speed and strength are needed and the skill can be taught. It just doesn't work that way. Like TD said, you either have skill or you don't have it. Now a combination of great skill and great athleticism is pretty lethal, but with the training professionals receive today they are all in very good shape. I have a friend who played on Canada's national team and he played in Scotland and England. I asked him who the toughest player he played against and without hesitation he responded Paul Gasgoigne. When he was playing against Gazza it was mostly when they were both in Scotland and it was when Gazza wasn't even close to being in great shape, but my friend said marking Gazza was the toughest and it was because Gazza's skill set was beyond any other player on the field. He said it was like Gazza had eyes in the back of his head. Now if Gazza could of kept himself in shape (both mentally and physically) he would of been an all time great, but he was born with a skill set that only a few have and can't be taught.

Offline JTBaby

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #111 on: February 13, 2013, 03:07:22 PM »
Catching a drunk out of shape gazza or George best is easy.

Taking the ball away from them, not so much.

Obvious to most anyone which factor is the most important.


Offline Maximus

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2013, 06:38:28 AM »
I am not saying that some people aren't born with a natural ability. A few are (very Rare) But for the most part IMO good footwork is taught and developed.

But back to my major point--  IT is about culture, money and opportunity--  how do you now which American kids are born with that skill set. There are likely more kids in America born with natural ability then we know. However they play other sports because that is where the money is.  For all you know wes welker could have been the next Beckham or Ray Rice the next Ronaldo

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2013, 10:48:34 AM »
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I am not saying that some people aren't born with a natural ability. A few are (very Rare) But for the most part IMO good footwork is taught and developed.

But back to my major point--  IT is about culture, money and opportunity--  how do you now which American kids are born with that skill set. There are likely more kids in America born with natural ability then we know. However they play other sports because that is where the money is.  For all you know wes welker could have been the next Beckham or Ray Rice the next Ronaldo

I would say that most succesful sportspeople were born with natural ability or talent.  Coaching built that up and maximised potential.

I agree with your point that young athletes go where the money is, and the status.  Many athletes with natural talent exhibit ability in different sports and they then make a decision at a relatively early age to focus on the sport they either enjoy the most, feel they're best at, or will give them the highest earning power.  For example, Boris Becker could have been a pro-footballer, and Gary Lineker was a very promising 400 metres runner, cricketer and snooker player.  I'm sure there are kids in the US who have the natural ability to become top soccer players, but they'd have to relocate to Europe at a relatively early age and train with a European club's youth academy if they wanted to develope into a world class footballer because the US just doesn't have the organisational setup for top level football. 

Offline Inishfree

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2013, 09:33:51 PM »
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I am not saying that some people aren't born with a natural ability. A few are (very Rare) But for the most part IMO good footwork is taught and developed.

But back to my major point--  IT is about culture, money and opportunity--  how do you now which American kids are born with that skill set. There are likely more kids in America born with natural ability then we know. However they play other sports because that is where the money is.  For all you know wes welker could have been the next Beckham or Ray Rice the next Ronaldo

I would say that most succesful sportspeople were born with natural ability or talent.  Coaching built that up and maximised potential.

I agree with your point that young athletes go where the money is, and the status.  Many athletes with natural talent exhibit ability in different sports and they then make a decision at a relatively early age to focus on the sport they either enjoy the most, feel they're best at, or will give them the highest earning power.  For example, Boris Becker could have been a pro-footballer, and Gary Lineker was a very promising 400 metres runner, cricketer and snooker player.  I'm sure there are kids in the US who have the natural ability to become top soccer players, but they'd have to relocate to Europe at a relatively early age and train with a European club's youth academy if they wanted to develope into a world class footballer because the US just doesn't have the organisational setup for top level football. 


I agree and the same is for dance, learning a musical instrument, fine arts and etc.  There has to be a "natural ability."   You can teach a group of kids the footwork of soccer and some can do it and others will be clumsy.  I have noticed, at least in my neck of the woods, soccer is becoming increasingly popular with girls and they are good at it.   

Offline imaginary friend

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #115 on: March 04, 2013, 04:25:41 PM »
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Offline JTBaby

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #116 on: March 04, 2013, 09:24:36 PM »
They're pretty sure England will qualify I guess.


Offline imaginary friend

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2013, 09:32:27 AM »
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Offline JTBaby

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2013, 09:35:18 AM »
Neither team was very good.

There's better football being played in the Confederations Cup.




Offline imaginary friend

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Re: 2014 World Cup
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2013, 09:40:44 AM »
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