Author Topic: The Playboy Mansion  (Read 13769 times)

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Offline bonogrl from Boston

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 06:10:21 PM »
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Yeah that was a good summing-up of things Ro~Jo. Shows how farcical it is that so many people hate this song, how short-sighted of them.

Just because somebody doesn't like something doesn't mean they don't recognize the talent, or that they are "short-sighted."  I am not a big fan of this song or Miami, but I realize that they are very good songs both musically and lyrically.  I really can't stand to read anything by Hemingway, but that doesn't mean I don't see that he was a very talented writer.  Just means I don't like his style.   ;) 

That said, this is one of the few songs that I usually skip over.  Sorry.

Offline TraKianLite/Zooropa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 06:15:24 PM »
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Couldn't have said it better myself.  (I wish I could, but really I can't.  That was beautiful, Ro-Jo)  I just remembered today, didn't Michael Jackson release an album called 'History'?  Is that what that line means?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Though the pun is obvious - by that point (1995), had the child abuse charges raised and was somewhat in commercial decline.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 06:31:10 PM by TraKianLite/Zooropa »

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2008, 04:30:20 AM »
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Yeah that was a good summing-up of things Ro~Jo. Shows how farcical it is that so many people hate this song, how short-sighted of them.

Just because somebody doesn't like something doesn't mean they don't recognize the talent, or that they are "short-sighted."  I am not a big fan of this song or Miami, but I realize that they are very good songs both musically and lyrically.  I really can't stand to read anything by Hemingway, but that doesn't mean I don't see that he was a very talented writer.  Just means I don't like his style.   ;) 

That said, this is one of the few songs that I usually skip over.  Sorry.

That's alright, at least you seem to have some insight into what the songs mean. It's the people who simply say "The Playboy Mansion sucks" or "Miami's horrible" who annoy me. People who say these things clearly don't understand what the songs are about, but at least you do.  :)

Offline Joe90usa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2008, 05:19:13 PM »
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That's alright, at least you seem to have some insight into what the songs mean. It's the people who simply say "The Playboy Mansion sucks" or "Miami's horrible" who annoy me. People who say these things clearly don't understand what the songs are about, but at least you do.  :)

It's very possible to understand what the song is about and still hate it.  These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. 

Offline TraKianLite/Zooropa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2008, 05:47:36 PM »
This is probably one of, if not the weakest song(s) on Pop, although given my opinion of the album this isn't exactly a critical slating. I think the main problem is the lyrical proposition; I don't really believe (and I can't imagine Bono does, either) that most people think McDonalds and celebrity culture are suitable replacements for religion, or that materialism solves everything, as is suggested by the coda.

Really, it's the music that shifts it up, because somehow they've managed to combine porn soundtrack, reggae and gospel, which I don't think I've ever heard anywhere else, ever. I also like how the wah-guitar part shifts to a wah-filtered synthesiser and back throughout the song, a kind of weird inversion of the changing-timbre-instead-of-riff trick into changing-riff-and-instrument-instead-of-timbre.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 02:46:54 AM »
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That's alright, at least you seem to have some insight into what the songs mean. It's the people who simply say "The Playboy Mansion sucks" or "Miami's horrible" who annoy me. People who say these things clearly don't understand what the songs are about, but at least you do.  :)

It's very possible to understand what the song is about and still hate it.  These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. 

True, never said they were. But I'm just sick of this song being constantly slated by so many people. Some have proper insight and so I can't complain about them, but lots of people just simply say "it sucks", or something to that effect. What's that? That's nothing. Or they say it's one of their worst ever songs etc when it's certainly not imo. It's not people disliking it that I have a problem with, it's the people who say they hate it and can't give a proper reason why.

Offline Joe90usa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 12:35:37 PM »
What is a "proper" reason?

There is a school of thought in the art world that a person can not like or dislike a piece of art until they truly understand it.  I've never bought into that myself.  I know when I like or dislike something when I look at it and understanding the artist and/or the particular piece is not likely to change my point of view.

That same thought works for me in the world of music.  I don't need to know the artist, I don't need to understand the thought process behind the chord arrangement or what the subtext of the lyrics is to know that when I listen to it, I either like it or don't.

I'm not opposed to analysis in either of these examples, but I do not believe that is required before I can have an opinion on what I am looking at or listening to.

Offline TraKianLite/Zooropa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2008, 12:48:44 PM »
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(post; slightly long to quote)

...all hard to argue with. I think the problem, though, is that debate breaks down pretty quickly when the only criticism someone has is "because it sucks". For example, I've often criticised October here, but I've often put forward that a) it proseltyses too much (admittedly I occasionally overstate this) and b) that the music is too derivative of Boy. The point is, whether you think these arguments are valid or not, they are at least starting points to genuine discussion, instead of the potential circularity of simply accusing something of sucking.

Offline StrongGirl

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 06:11:39 PM »
Hey, joe, I think I said something just like that in the October thread.  Only you said it so much better than I did! I either like it or I don't as well.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 02:34:32 AM »
I personally don't think you can give a fair critique of a song until you know what it's about, and understand what the artist is trying to say. If you don't, then you basically haven't listened to the song properly. I think, with this song, you have to fully appreciate it lyrically to form a valid opinion, because the lyrics are core to this song, more so I'd say than the music in this case.

Offline Joe90usa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »
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I personally don't think you can give a fair critique of a song until you know what it's about, and understand what the artist is trying to say. If you don't, then you basically haven't listened to the song properly. I think, with this song, you have to fully appreciate it lyrically to form a valid opinion, because the lyrics are core to this song, more so I'd say than the music in this case.

But Bono writes songs purposefully ambiguous on many occasions.  Who is the arbiter of what the correct lyrical interpretation of any song might be?  If I come up with a different meaning to a song than you, who decides which is correct...if either?

It's a dangerous mountain to create.  Art has an emotional aspect that is at least as important as the intellectual aspect of it.  I would argue that the emotional carries more weight, but that's just my opinion.  How a song makes me feel is far more important to me than understanding any sort of message though it is possible that the emotion could be increased with that knowledge.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 07:57:10 AM »
I fear I've been bogged down here, I think I need to clear up may viewpoint. I know several people who tell me that they think "Playboy Mansion sucks" etc. And I know many others say the same thing. Clearly art is a very subjective thing, and I'm aware that sometimes it shouldn't be over-intellectualized. But when someone expresses their extreme dislike for something, I like to know why. It's like an artist spending years making a masterpiece and somebody walking up to it, pointing and saying "that's total c**p". To me, this is a song that needs to be thought about deeply.

Say two people were to review this song and both of them dislike it. And say one of them gave insightful reasons as to how they thought the song was lacking. The other guy listens to it once and says "that's total c**p". Who's opinion do you think sounds more credible? Like I said earlier, I don't look down on anyone who thinks the song is poor or overrated. It's the people who give nothing responses when you ask them, apart from to say that it "sucks". Some people can make fair points against this song; others don't give it a chance.

Offline TraKianLite/Zooropa

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 10:31:16 AM »
Perhaps it should be put the reverse way: anything post saying "OMG it's brilliunt!!!111!!!!11111" and nothing more should also be called on.

Offline Chip

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2008, 12:24:58 AM »
Whether you take the song as ultimately praising real faith or damning a consumerist alternative, there's one pretty obvious metaphor that I haven't seen anyone pick up on yet (if I missed you, sorry): "We'll go driving in that pool" is a baptism allusion or twist (take your pick), even if it's also a reference to Keith Moon.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Playboy Mansion
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2008, 10:28:12 AM »
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Perhaps it should be put the reverse way: anything post saying "OMG it's brilliunt!!!111!!!!11111" and nothing more should also be called on.

Absolutely.