Dear Forum Admin and Moderators - A request for possible compromise....

[JTNash]

I find this is interesting coming from an tha, someone who seems at times to be a proud member of the “negative contingent” on this forum. You want people to be allowed to have the chance to continue with respectful and tolerant political discussions, but yet others are not always respectful or tolerant of those of us that choose to always speak positively about the band. The political discussions were getting very toxic with some forum members almost refusing to allow others to have an opinion different from theirs (heck, some even refused to allow band members to have an opinion different from theirs), but I feel those weren’t the only topics to get that way. I’ve noticed that I’m not the only pro-band forum member that has stopped posting as much as we used to. I do sometimes decide to just go with it and post comments or fight back a bit, but generally I just move along and don’t say anything, because I don’t feel like dealing with my positive band comment being belittled or responded to with snark. If the mods agree to a compromise and allow the political discussions to continue with some strict guidelines for respect and tolerance, then I think the “negative contingent” members need to think about adhering to those same guidelines for band discussions as well. Some of you appear to feel that bringing back the Real World section would make the forum better and it might do that, if everyone behaves properly. However, I feel the forum would also be much better if the “negative contingent” backed off from the bashing of comments that are positive about the band. You claim some have gone away or feel intimidated because they can’t speak their mind politically and you miss the activity from those members. Well, if some of us didn’t always have to worry about being belittled for our pro-band positive thinking, we might actually participate more in some discussions around here as well and up the activity level.

agreed

[John Galt]

Whilst there should be responsibility on the poster, there must remain some onus on the reader too... One always has two choices - to choose to be offended, or to choose not to be.

True briscoe, but you can't use that attitude to give yourself carte blanche to say whatever you want, however you want. The ultimate responsibility for your words falls on you, and no one else.

Correct. It's an attitude to be used when reading, not writing.

There's a different attitude to be used when writing, that's covered in the rules.

I agree.  People can be offended by anything and everything if they're determined enough.

[m2]

you also have (as I know from being told it) a very 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude towards people who question/challenge how those rules are applied, so the fact you have at least taken the time to engage in this thread is a credit to you and indeed to myself for starting a tone that made you want to engage and of course a credit to others feeling like they wanted to too and doing so respectfully and insightfully

Thanks, and let's not break our own arms patting ourselves on the back. :-)

Yep, "if you don't like it, leave" is very much my attitude and I don't apologize for that one bit. We have a very specific vision of what this forum can be and should be, we have rules in place to spell that out, and we're doing everything we can to get the forum to reflect that vision. We know we'll lose people along the way, and maybe in the short-term that hurts, but in the long-term it's not healthy for this forum to have people here who don't have the same vision. (Nor is it healthy for those people to keep using a forum where they disagree with how things are done, right?)

Fair means treating everyone how they deserve.".....

I have a problem with that - it is way too subjective, loaded and smacks of an agenda.

As I've said before, and as our rules say, moderation will always be subjective. We'll never be able to avoid that; we're human. We've made mistakes. I admitted that in an earlier message. And I'm sure we'll make mistakes in the future. And yes, we do have an agenda -- I explained it above. We want the tone and atmosphere here to change.

All I ask is that attitude does not continue to prevail and you are mindful of how that made me feel (you talk above about respect etc) it works two ways - You sending PM's consisting of two words "Grow Up" in response to jokes on the forum do not foster a healthy respectful relationship and atmosphere

It does work two ways. And because I respect your privacy and don't think it's right to air private messages on a public forum, I'll send you a PM reminding you of some disrespectful comments you said privately to another forum member not long ago.

In terms of public messages, I remember a couple months ago there was a thread where people were talking about the forum and saying @U2 has crossed the line by not silencing Trump supporters, and you wrote a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login criticizing the mods as "uninvolved" and talking about how we need to do this better, do that better, change this and change that ... and then you ended the post with a flippant comment: "Oh and i am NOT in any way pitching to help...."

Is that the kind of respect you're talking about? Because that didn't feel too respectful at the time. (And now that I've forced myself to re-read it, it still doesn't feel very respectful.) I mean, sure, we appreciate the feedback and ideas on how things can get better, but you ended it by basically taking your ball and going home, which I think you also criticized other forum members for doing in your post yesterday in this thread.

And speaking of irony, you also mentioned in that post from a couple months back that "from my experience of forums the best ones are the ones where mods are active members contributing and helping shape the culture of the community and helping keep things tidy."

And here we are now, doing exactly what you suggested we do, and you keep posting in this thread to tell us that you don't agree with what we're doing. More accurately, the message I keep getting from your posts here is that you've started to agree with what we're doing, but you want us to do it your way, not ours.

[an tha]

i will not be drawn into what is a very clear attempt to make me look bad using selective scenarios......especially when as i have right now i have been out drinking...

As the thread starter I am locking this thread until I  have the time to and am sober enough to reply properly.

Cheers

[Hawkmoon2e]

i will not be drawn into what is a very clear attempt to make me look bad using selective scenarios......especially when as i have right now i have been out drinking...

As the thread starter I am locking this thread until I  have the time to and am sober enough to reply properly.

Cheers

Oh no, an tha, you're not doing that. The thread locking ability is something we will definitely look at in the future, But you are not locking this thread because you aren't fit to reply after a night out. You bring up a good point, though. So much of what we're talking about here is self control. (Drunk or not.) So go sleep it off, make sure you grab the hair of the dog in the morning, and we'll continue. But you're not going to dictate whether or not others want to reply in this thread - not this one.

[an tha]

i will not be drawn into what is a very clear attempt to make me look bad using selective scenarios......especially when as i have right now i have been out drinking...

As the thread starter I am locking this thread until I  have the time to and am sober enough to reply properly.

Cheers

Oh no, an tha, you're not doing that. The thread locking ability is something we will definitely look at in the future, But you are not locking this thread because you aren't fit to reply after a night out. You bring up a good point, though. So much of what we're talking about here is self control. (Drunk or not.) So go sleep it off, make sure you grab the hair of the dog in the morning, and we'll continue. But you're not going to dictate whether or not others want to reply in this thread - not this one.

I am perfectly fit but as site admin has decided to up the ante I thought it better to let thread sit until I felt less likely to say something that I might regret after a drink or two - actually engaging with your rules about respect.....but as you have now tagged in I will happily engage further, but when I have time to properly.

I am glad I have highlighted the functionallity to you though.

[an tha]

All,

I am going to pick up and reply to site admins comments above as follows:

Site admin said:

"It does work two ways. And because I respect your privacy and don't think it's right to air private messages on a public forum, I'll send you a PM reminding you of some disrespectful comments you said privately to another forum member not long ago".....


The comments site admin is referring to where made in a private message exchange between user 'John Galt' and myself.

The exchange was as follows:

Member John Galt sent me a mesage...

I replied: "Ha! you are crafty enough to swerve the cull.....you have to to help keep me sane!

Top 4 for us at best this year...maybe kick on next if we buy well - something we struggle to do whenever look set.

Exciting times ahead potentially for your boys too - looks like this time there is some genuine movement and action happening...."

The part site admin has an issue with is where I talk about JG being 'crafty enough to swerve to the cull'....

This is what site admin is talking about in the comments above where he mentions me making 'direspectful comments'.....for the record I was just saying to JG that he basically knows how to avoid getting banned...

Site admin - I have it in a PM from you that this is exactly the conversation you are alluding to above - I won' t go into the full detail of our PM exchange where you explicitly mention this exchange and how you allude to it in your post above - but we both know what I have put out here in public is exactly word for word what you are talking about above.....

When you talk about moderating being subjective you are right – it is very tough to apply genuine objectivity I suppose and at least you seem aware of that and are not pretending you are right about everything. 

On the other hand I would like the vision of the place here to be a bit more flexible and tolerant, not narrow.  i.e. there has to be space for everybody here - a truly all inclusive forum.

You as site admin made a  comment about me saying my piece and then pointing out I said I was not pitching in to help.....and accused me of 'taking my ball home'.....When i said i was not pitching to help after the post you reference I was merely trying to be respectful to the authority of the mods – to say that whilst noticing a problem I accepted their approach and didn’t want to tread on any toes.

A self deprecating statement saying that my help may not be wanted but more to the point I wasn't trying to force ny help in where it wasn't wanted....I may with the benefit of hindsight have worded that badly!....

I would actually really like to help and ensure a more active and involved forum.....MAJOR NEWS FLASH!...That is why I applied for one of the mod roles (I can feel the shock from people at this news!) you have been advertising....I want to hear all voices getting involved.  I appreciate your honesty in admitting mistakes along the way and that you recognise you have made some misjudgements.

I am troubled to hear that some people like Canadanne and JT Nash don’t like posting due to negativity and I want to do more to address their concerns. 

However it is important that all voices are heard even the sometimes critical ones....so we’ll all need to work harder to make this as pluralistic and inclusive a place as possible. 

I know I am an opinionated b****** but that is me.... Being argumentative doesn't mean I don't respect the other users and the mods I honestly really do, and I appreciate that site admin has listened to and conversed with me. I hope people respect me back for bring contrary and keeping you on your toes (smiley)  (Don’t know if that humour will go down well)

The basic point is it's good to have different opinions and I really do respect and like the people here and have meant no offence to individual users with any of my critical comments about Elevation and other U2 "classics" 

So....all that said I hope we can move foward and leave past misunderstandings/issues in the past..

I believe we can make here what we all want it to be....the best u2 forum out there with the best atmosphere...

To show just how open and honest I am being here despite some misjudgements I have made along the way I am going to post my mod application in full.....I'll never recover my legendary cool again after this and leave myself open to ridicule...but i do so without any regret as I meant every word of it and what I have written in this post and in this thread....so.....

I would like to express my interest in the Forum Moderator opportunity you are currently advertising.

My name is xxxxxxxxxx – you will know me from the forum by the username “An Tha”. I live in Greater London in the UK.


I am expressing an interest in the role because I feel I could really help make our community an even better place for all who use it...Why do I think this? Please let me try and explain!.... I appreciate this is long - but I am passionate about this so I ask that you take a few hours to read what I have written here and I thank you in advance and anticipation of you doing so!! 😀

I am a very active member of the forum community something I feel is very important for a moderator to be in terms of helping the building of a healthy atmosphere, and understanding the dynamics of the community and the people who make it what it is....the members.

You will know or you can easily find out if you don’t know by looking at my input to the forum that I am a quite prolific contributor, and I clearly enjoy engaging within the community discussing all things U2 and other subjects....I have been known to start the odd poll or two as well in my time! We do love a poll on our forum, don’t we...

I believe I can bring a level of enthusiasm, commitment, willingness to put forward ideas to improve the community for all as well as the required people skills that will make me a good addition to your team and help drive activity, promote a good atmosphere within the community and help with the overall well being of what is a much loved resource for u2 fans from across the globe.

Experience has led me to believe very strongly in the promotion of self moderation, people knowing what is and what isn’t the right kind of behaviour within the community without it actually needing to be an issue that is often discussed......unconscious consciousness!.... and this is achieved by building a healthy respect between admin/mods and members where we are really all the same at heart in terms of how we use the forum on a daily basis with a shared goal to create and maintain the best possible community for the use of and enjoyment of all, a truly all inclusive forum where people feel part of something a little more than “Just a forum”  – but a few of us have a slightly bigger role to play in helping shape things for the good of all.

Of course there are times where there is the need to make certain decisions in response to things that may happen – nowhere is perfect and people sometimes act in a way that is unacceptable to others and that “upsets” the atmosphere... I am very much a believer in prevention being better than the cure, but if necessary I have no issues with dealing with issues....I always believe that in doing so though that fairness, balance, empathy, respect and mature and open discussion/communication is offered....treat people as you would wish to be treated yourself and make a decision based on the wider picture and for the good of all involved.

It is also my belief that a forum admin and moderation team are just that a TEAM – working together and meshing together each other’s strengths, helping each other, sharing ideas, seeking each other’s advice and driving the forum forward with and for the whole community.

I am aware that to some of you my application may come as a surprise – I make no apology for applying and I truly believe that I would be a genuinely positive addition to the team and help shape our forum and community positively going forward.

 In the words of Bono “we’re one but we’re not the same” – I may appear a little different at times to what you as a team may be looking for but I ask you to consider what I have outlined in this e-mail and to consider me for the role based on what I have said here.

 I am very aware that I am not applying in a popularity contest here and I feel slightly embarrassed writing what I am about to write – but I believe that a moderator along with all the people skills and attitude traits I have mentioned and you are asking for should be someone who has respect within the community, respect they have regardless of “titles”...I believe I have that and you would be surprised at how many members contact me to chat/for advice etc....even some of these you may be surprised to hear the names of....I think bringing that level of “standing” in the community to the role would be a big asset to the team and the forum - People are often much more willing to take a friendly, quiet word from their well known bar manager if they are getting a bit boisterous at the bar than they are to take being shouted at by the relief manager who they hardly know...The situation is diffused quicker and more happily and with less bother for all.

The role of course is more, much more than just some kind of forum police officer and I believe that I can add real value in terms of ideas that would help drive activity, improve discussion, encourage people to join in and drive new memberships as well as continually improving the community.

 Please feel free to e-mail/PM with any questions you may have – I am very happy to be “interviewed” for the role and would relish and be genuinely proud of the opportunity to discuss further with you and who knows maybe join the team and help our forum.

Kind Regards

xxxxxxxxxxxx




Right I am off to die from embarrassment!!

Cheers

[briscoetheque]

In the game of forum poker An Tha, you've just gone all in...

[m2]

On the other hand I would like the vision of the place here to be a bit more flexible and tolerant, not narrow.

An Tha:

Here you go again, saying the same thing you've said this entire thread: You want us to run the forum the way you think it should be run.

So I'll say the same thing I've been saying the whole thread: No thanks.

Now the choice is yours: Do you want to continue using this forum or not?

If not, feel free to find some forum where you'll be happier. There are lots of places on the internet to talk about U2. If you don't like any of them, start one yourself and build it exactly how you think a U2 forum should be built!!!

If you do, you know what's expected of you and every other forum member.

There's nothing else to say at this point, so I'm locking the thread. Time for action, not words.