Author Topic: People on this forum have overblown POP  (Read 4063 times)

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Online an tha

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2017, 03:06:03 PM »
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Was America's 'rejection' of Pop largely down to it being a record so far removed from their mainstream music scene then?

I think context has everything to do with it, really.  Acknowledging that people don't all follow the same trends, old fans by and large may not have wanted to see U2 dress as the Village People or "go techno", and younger folks didn't necessarily buy U2 adopting the trappings of youth culture.  I liked quite a lot of it, but it's hard to deny it didn't catch fire like Zoo TV did.  Even that move, as celebrated as it is now, wasn't without its detractors at the time.

Definitely all what you said is a part of it and it of course has many shades....I just wonder if generally America (or more to the point u2 fans in America) is less receptive of European culture than Europe is generally of American culture?...

For example in the late 80's Bono was dressing in cowboy boots and hats and u2 were very into 'America' but i don't recall a big rejection of it generally over here - whereas there is definitely the suggestion that Pop was influenced by what was happening in Europe musically and i wonder if that was part of America's 'rejection'.....
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:11:31 PM by an tha »

Offline Spaderholic

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2017, 04:18:38 PM »
So much snobbery about Madonna! I remember when she first burst onto the music scene some people were saying "Oh, she'll only last 6 months and then she'll be forgotten about!" Well, 34 years later she's still here and has had a phenomenal career. Certainly Ray Of Light is a great album but there's so much more to her than that, just as there's more to her than just her poppier 80's songs. Really, her Like A Prayer album is where she started to show just how talented and versatile an artist she is. The songs on that album are more introspective, more mature, beautifully crafted. Take a song like Spanish Eyes, it's gorgeous. Erotica also has some of her best work. I'm not so keen on Bedtime Stories, I think it's one of her weakest albums. I really don't think Madonna has ever released a BAD album though. There's some great work on every album she's brought out. Her most recent album, Rebel Heart has some dross for sure but it also has some of the best songs of her career on it, in my opinion. It's a shame those best songs weren't released as singles. Those who haven't listened to the deluxe version are missing out on great songs like Joan Of Arc, Heartbreak City, Inside Out, Wash All Over Me, Messiah, Borrowed Time and Addicted. Madonna is amazing live performer too. She's a very creative, versatile artist.

Madonna has had her peaks and troughs, for sure, but then so have most artists and whilst I find it annoying that she sometimes comes across as too "try hard" with trying to stay "current" and "down wiv da kids", I can't really criticise her too much as U2 seem to be trying to do the same thing too! I wish they wouldn't. Both U2 and Madonna, when they're on form and write for themselves and not what they think the new "young generation" is into they produce some amazing work!

I haven't liked everything Madonna has ever released, by any means, but the same goes for U2 and most artists. Both artists have released an amazing and varied body of work since the early 80's and I could never tire of listening to either of them. I also like that both artists continue to release new work too and not just rely on past glories (TJT anniversary tour notwithstanding!) I might not like all their newer stuff but I appreciate they still have the desire to create new music. :)

Offline ShankAsu

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2017, 04:24:37 PM »
If Madonna didn't have an emerging Mtv behind her early in her career, she probably wouldn't have lasted beyond six months, but her and Mtv were perfect for each other and used each other  She was style over substance.  Her sex appeal sold and she pushed that envelope for YEARS.  For me it was tiring and i felt embarrassed for her a few times even.

Offline Spaderholic

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2017, 04:57:12 PM »
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If Madonna didn't have an emerging Mtv behind her early in her career, she probably wouldn't have lasted beyond six months, but her and Mtv were perfect for each other and used each other  She was style over substance.  Her sex appeal sold and she pushed that envelope for YEARS.  For me it was tiring and i felt embarrassed for her a few times even.

Countless pop stars over the years have tried to have a career based on their sexuality but have failed - because their songs just weren't good enough and they were lacklustre/mediocre as performers. No artist can have a successful career for as long as Madonna has had if sex appeal is all they're selling. It all comes down to the music in the end and Madonna has consistently released great songs! The same went for Prince in the 80's. He too was very sexual (but of course he was a man so he was praised whilst Madonna was criticised!) and if all Prince had been good for was cavorting around in his videos on MTV and on stage (I went to see him live - I remember him and these women cavorting about half naked on a giant bed on stage!) he wouldn't have lasted very long either but he did because he had great music. You can be as sexual as you like as a pop star but you simply won't have a long, substantial career unless you have the music to back it up. Madonna did and always has done.

Offline THRILLHO

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2017, 04:59:59 PM »
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Was America's 'rejection' of Pop largely down to it being a record so far removed from their mainstream music scene then?

I think context has everything to do with it, really.  Acknowledging that people don't all follow the same trends, old fans by and large may not have wanted to see U2 dress as the Village People or "go techno", and younger folks didn't necessarily buy U2 adopting the trappings of youth culture.  I liked quite a lot of it, but it's hard to deny it didn't catch fire like Zoo TV did.  Even that move, as celebrated as it is now, wasn't without its detractors at the time.

Definitely all what you said is a part of it and it of course has many shades....I just wonder if generally America (or more to the point u2 fans in America) is less receptive of European culture than Europe is generally of American culture?...

For example in the late 80's Bono was dressing in cowboy boots and hats and u2 were very into 'America' but i don't recall a big rejection of it generally over here - whereas there is definitely the suggestion that Pop was influenced by what was happening in Europe musically and i wonder if that was part of America's 'rejection'.....

it was. as a 16 y/o neck deep in the music of the era at the time i can assure you the belief was it was "to techno" the ship had gone to far from the shore. the Discotheque video was a side note.

despite that i still heard SATS on the radio A LOT at the time.

Offline ShankAsu

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2017, 05:18:12 PM »
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If Madonna didn't have an emerging Mtv behind her early in her career, she probably wouldn't have lasted beyond six months, but her and Mtv were perfect for each other and used each other  She was style over substance.  Her sex appeal sold and she pushed that envelope for YEARS.  For me it was tiring and i felt embarrassed for her a few times even.

Countless pop stars over the years have tried to have a career based on their sexuality but have failed - because their songs just weren't good enough and they were lacklustre/mediocre as performers. No artist can have a successful career for as long as Madonna has had if sex appeal is all they're selling. It all comes down to the music in the end and Madonna has consistently released great songs! The same went for Prince in the 80's. He too was very sexual (but of course he was a man so he was praised whilst Madonna was criticised!) and if all Prince had been good for was cavorting around in his videos on MTV and on stage (I went to see him live - I remember him and these women cavorting about half naked on a giant bed on stage!) he wouldn't have lasted very long either but he did because he had great music. You can be as sexual as you like as a pop star but you simply won't have a long, substantial career unless you have the music to back it up. Madonna did and always has done.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on what a great pop song is when it comes to Madonna :)  her music just does nothing for me, but fair enough.

Offline WookieeWarrior10

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2017, 05:35:05 PM »
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Was America's 'rejection' of Pop largely down to it being a record so far removed from their mainstream music scene then?

I think context has everything to do with it, really.  Acknowledging that people don't all follow the same trends, old fans by and large may not have wanted to see U2 dress as the Village People or "go techno", and younger folks didn't necessarily buy U2 adopting the trappings of youth culture.  I liked quite a lot of it, but it's hard to deny it didn't catch fire like Zoo TV did.  Even that move, as celebrated as it is now, wasn't without its detractors at the time.
I find it interesting how this same argument can be made today, over 20 years later... too bad that it's a completely valid one now.

Offline shineinthesummernight

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2017, 05:57:47 PM »
I enjoyed "Pop" a lot, as well as the Popmart tour.  Seeing Bono and company dressed as the Village People was weird, but in a good way. 
     I also think Madonna's "Like a Prayer" and "Ray of Light" albums showcase a great talent.  I have to admit I lost track of her after those efforts.  Some of her stunts are a bit off-putting, and as someone else said, it's like she tried too hard to shock or be relevant.

Offline THRILLHO

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2017, 05:58:36 PM »
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I enjoyed "Pop" a lot, as well as the Popmart tour.  Seeing Bono and company dressed as the Village People was weird, but in a good way. 
     I also think Madonna's "Like a Prayer" and "Ray of Light" albums showcase a great talent.  I have to admit I lost track of her after those efforts.  Some of her stunts are a bit off-putting, and as someone else said, it's like she tried too hard to shock or be relevant.

so wait were U2 and Madonna's last great albums the same year?

Offline shineinthesummernight

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2017, 06:02:00 PM »
No, I've kept up with U2.  They've never done an album that I didn't find something I liked on.  I really liked NLOTH.

Offline Spaderholic

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2017, 06:11:42 PM »
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I enjoyed "Pop" a lot, as well as the Popmart tour.  Seeing Bono and company dressed as the Village People was weird, but in a good way. 
     I also think Madonna's "Like a Prayer" and "Ray of Light" albums showcase a great talent.  I have to admit I lost track of her after those efforts.  Some of her stunts are a bit off-putting, and as someone else said, it's like she tried too hard to shock or be relevant.

I think with Madonna and some of her more OTT stunts in the past it's probably just a case of feeling the need to stand out in a very competitive industry, where there are so many new artists bursting onto the scene and trying to steal your thunder. Sort of going just that little bit further to stay ahead of the pack. Sometimes it's worked to her advantage, sometimes it's backfired. I guess she'll just see it all as part of a learning curve, lol! She's certainly not the only artist to do controversial things on stage though, over the years (Jim Morrison exposing himself on stage anyone, lol!?) Lady Gaga has certainly been accused of being all style over substance in the past, with her crazy outfits and antics, but beneath all that is a very talented singer/songwriter/pianist. She seems to have finally realised that she doesn't need to go overboard anymore and is able to let her music and talent speak for itself, but her OTT antics earlier in her career probably helped to get her noticed and established as an artist, initially.

Sadly I think Madonna's 2000's albums have a lot of filler (much like U2's albums do, in my opinion!) but (also like U2) there is great stuff on all these albums. I just don't think Madonna's best songs from these albums were the ones released as singles so a lot of people who only know her singles might not expect much from her most recent albums, which is a shame. In particular I think her American Life album was very good and was a step in a different direction for her but (like with U2 and Pop, I guess) it wasn't as well received by the public so she then returned to her poppier/dancier more commercial roots with her Confessions On A Dancefloor album and had huge success with it. Much like when Kylie Minogue released her more "alternative" and "experimental" album Impossible Princess, where she branched out and did less commercial music.  It flopped, big time, so she then reverted to being a pop disco princess with her Light Years album and was successful again. I think some of Kylie's best work was on Impossible Princess though, when she wasn't chasing the hits.

Anyway, back to U2, Pop is still in my Top 5 U2 albums (it sort of changes from 3rd to 4th favourite, depending on my mood!) and I absolutely love the PopMart Live in Mexico DVD. I still watch it regularly. It's an exciting and exhilarating concert and I could never tire of it. Whereas I rarely watch my Vertigo Tour Live In Chicago DVD as I find it quite boring by comparison. I've never bought the Elevation Tour Live In Boston DVD as I have the Slane Castle DVD, which is so wonderful, I thought the Boston show recording was meant to be drab by comparison. Having watched footage of The Fly from the Boston DVD though, however, I think I should probably get that DVD too, as that performance of The Fly is amazing! Is the whole show really good or is the Slane Castle one much better? Just wondering. :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 06:24:14 PM by Spaderholic »

Offline aviastar

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People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2017, 09:13:18 PM »
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Was America's 'rejection' of Pop largely down to it being a record so far removed from their mainstream music scene then?

I think context has everything to do with it, really.  Acknowledging that people don't all follow the same trends, old fans by and large may not have wanted to see U2 dress as the Village People or "go techno", and younger folks didn't necessarily buy U2 adopting the trappings of youth culture.  I liked quite a lot of it, but it's hard to deny it didn't catch fire like Zoo TV did.  Even that move, as celebrated as it is now, wasn't without its detractors at the time.

Definitely all what you said is a part of it and it of course has many shades....I just wonder if generally America (or more to the point u2 fans in America) is less receptive of European culture than Europe is generally of American culture?...

For example in the late 80's Bono was dressing in cowboy boots and hats and u2 were very into 'America' but i don't recall a big rejection of it generally over here - whereas there is definitely the suggestion that Pop was influenced by what was happening in Europe musically and i wonder if that was part of America's 'rejection'.....

You are partially right IMO.  I was just graduating high school...and lived right on the New York State side of the US/Canada border.  In the 90s, ZooTV was something that you could turn to different from grunge music while other alternative rock groups started cooking up their own stuff.  I don't think it got overtly Euro-centric until Zooropa was released, and I think A sizeable chunk of Americans just didn't get it.  I remember a lot of friends were just not into Zooropa at all...too "out there" they thought.  When the rumors were about that U2 was going to release an electronic/dance album, it was confounding because bands in America at the time just did not cross genres that often.  When Pop was released, the people that were into that style of music were already listening to more of the established acts in that genre....like Massive Attack or The Prodigy or Jamiroquoi.  So it probably seemed for them that U2 was trying to be something they are not.

For  a sizeable swath of the US population, U2 was supposed to be a rock group...they equated U2 with Streets, not Discotheques.  Also, where I lived Canadian alternative rock was becoming massively popular...The Tragically Hip become huge, Tea Party, Barenaked Ladies....and alt rock everything from Smashing Pumpkins to Marilyn Manson was just so popular in 96-97...so that crowded out a lot of other stuff.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 09:22:52 PM by aviastar »

Offline Saint1322

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2017, 09:22:44 AM »
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If Madonna didn't have an emerging Mtv behind her early in her career, she probably wouldn't have lasted beyond six months, but her and Mtv were perfect for each other and used each other  She was style over substance.  Her sex appeal sold and she pushed that envelope for YEARS.  For me it was tiring and i felt embarrassed for her a few times even.

I disagree. Her early songs are pop brilliance. Lucky Star, Borderline, Like A Virgin, etc., would all have been club staples without her incredible appearance. And let's face it; Madonna was absolutely stunning.

Offline Johnny Feathers

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2017, 09:33:49 AM »
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If Madonna didn't have an emerging Mtv behind her early in her career, she probably wouldn't have lasted beyond six months, but her and Mtv were perfect for each other and used each other  She was style over substance.  Her sex appeal sold and she pushed that envelope for YEARS.  For me it was tiring and i felt embarrassed for her a few times even.

I disagree. Her early songs are pop brilliance. Lucky Star, Borderline, Like A Virgin, etc., would all have been club staples without her incredible appearance. And let's face it; Madonna was absolutely stunning.

I tend to agree, and I'm not even a fan. 

Online an tha

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Re: People on this forum have overblown POP
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2017, 11:33:52 AM »
Madonna love, hate or be indifferent to her music was always going to be a huge star....a real standout.

She just had that 'It' factor and it is for me it is a little silly (for want of a better phrase) to deny it.

She was also very good at what she did....regardless of whether what she did was your kind of thing or not.

A bona fide megastar.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:35:30 AM by an tha »