Author Topic: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard  (Read 4198 times)

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2018, 09:55:44 AM »
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Its not a bad album... the problem is that U2 were an extraordinary band for the first 20 years of their career and all new releases from them will be compared to the masterpieces from the 80's and 90's.

Much of the bands best music has been recorded in the 00s and 10s. "Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own", Miracle Drug, Walk On, Kite, Winter, and Mercy are all songs that  I consider to be in the 20 greatest U2 songs of all time.

Different strokes for different folks 8). Of the songs you mention I would only consider Kite to be a top 20 contender and it would have to fight quite hard to get it ;D.

Another thing, Pop and Zooropa have never really been considered Masterpieces. All That You Can't Leave Behind and How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb on the other hand have 15 Grammy award wins between them and have sold a combined 23 million copies worldwide. Most people consider them masterpieces which they are.

Maybe the general public who mainly know U2 by their big singles (With or Without You, Beautiful Day, Vertigo) but the consensus is different amongst U2 fans. I actually like ATYCLB a lot and I think it's a very special album... the problems started after that ;D. HTDAAB should never have won so many grammies but the timing of the album was quite good.

U2 won 8 Grammy awards for HTDAAB and Steve Lillywhite won a grammy award as producer of the year for his work on the album, which makes How To Dismantle And Atomic Bomb the album to win the most Grammy awards in history with 9!

In my opinion, its U2's best album with the exception of Achtung Baby and the Joshua Tree.

The Pop album is a failed album in that the band needed to spend at least 6 more months working on it, to include re-writing some of the songs as well as re-recording others. It was an unfinished album rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. The band have admitted that and have said its a mistake they would never make again.

Yet Pop is a far superior album to HTDAAB in many U2 fans opinion. HTDAAB recently scored the lowest of all U2 albums in a poll done on Interference where U2 fans were asked to rate all the bands songs (1-10). I wont deny that its a more popular album in the general population though. The fact that it won 9 grammy's makes very little sense to me, but then again the grammies does not exactly have a reputation for hitting the mark.

Well, the Grammy academy has 17,000 members who vote. They all work in the music industry and are involve in the production of music. Artist, song writers, producers, studio engineers, musicians. They are all involved in actually making music. So, yep, I think their vote does matter. It is definitely an informed vote from people involved in making music. A poll of a hundred people on interference.com is a tiny section, of people who are fans of U2. As a matter of fact, I think there were only 20 or 30 people involved in the poll your referencing from interference which is not a representative sample of anything.

Hell, if U2 did a club tour for die hard fans, the 30 people who took that poll wouldn't even be significant fraction of the people they would play to.

By the way, if you don't think How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb deserved to win album of the year, which album do you think did deserve to win in the October 2004 to October 2005 time period?

The members of U2 prefer the work they did on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb by a mile. Look at how often they play songs from that album live as compared to Pop. Bono even said its their best album next to Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. The members of U2 generally view the Pop/Popmart era has a mistake and flawed period in the bands history. Again, Pop was not finished, it was rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. What's strange is the small segment of people who are such fans of a half baked piece of work.

50-100 people who are from a hardcore U2 fan site is more representative of hardcore U2 fans opinions than 17.000 people who are from the general public. The fact that a jury is from the music industry means little to nothing as music is taste and not science. I can mention a lot of examples where the jury has been completely ignorant especially in cases such as heavy music where they just dont seem to have a single clue. The members of U2 might prefer HTDAAB because it did better commercially and thus attract more people to their live shows. Also I dont agree with a lot of musical/political decisions that U2 makes these days so no surprise that I dont agree with them on this one either. BTW Bono has stated several times that PopMart is the tour he is most proud of so its not so clear cut.

I dont remember many albums from the era 2004-05 which might explain why Bomb won. Just based on memory I think my favorite album from 2005 was by Robyn. Also Gorillaz and Kanye I think have more iconic albums from that era.

It may be true that music industry people are not very representative of hardcore U2 fans, but the @U2 survey participants are, and the sample size is MUCH bigger than for the Interference poll.

When you say 50-100 people from a hardcore U2 fan site, I presume you're talking about the Interference poll, but that had 28 participants, not 50-100.

On the other hand, the @U2 survey question about least favorite album had 3865 respondents. Based on that, Pop is more unpopular than HTDAAB.

You clearly prefer Pop to HTDAAB and you are totally entitled to your opinion, but you should not mistake your preferences for the majority opinion of U2 fans, even of hardcore U2 fans.

I never said the majority of U2 fans share my opinions - thats your words not mine. I said its a different consensus among U2 fans which it quite clearly is - a lot of U2 fans rate Pop higher than HTDAAB and using arguments about sales figures and grammy wins is not valid measure of musical quality in my opinion. I wasn't even the one bringing Pop into the conversation - i commented on SOE ;D

EDIT: I also just looked at the survey you mention. Could only find from 2016 so i guess thats the latest version. As FAvorite U2 album HTDAAB has 1,6% and Pop has 3,0%. As Least Favorite U2 album HTDAAB has 5,3% and Pop has 9,08%. As Most Underrated U2 album HTDAAB has 4,35% and Pop has 30,92% (and wins the category by a huge margin). So I dont agree with your statement that is solely based on the category of least favorite - that is a quite biased way at looking at the numbers.

The reason that I looked at the least favorite album question is because you brought up the Interference poll, and said that HTDAAB being rated least favorite on average (not counting OS1) by 28 people is evidence of the consensus among hardcore U2 fans. That is such a small sample it doesn't necessarily mean much. I looked at the same question in a survey that includes thousands of people, which is a FAR less biased way of looking at the numbers.

You're right that the other questions in the survey are interesting as well. Pop is more likely to be rated best album than HTDAAB, while also being more likely to be rated worst album. I think that's an indication that Pop is a polarizing album, but with more hardcore fans hating it than loving it. The results of the other question, about most underrated album, are probably related to that. The minority that likes the album thinks it is underrated by the majority that dislikes it.

I agree that Pop is a polarizing album but you cant conclude that more hardcore fans hate it than love it. You can conclude that more people have it as worst than best which is not the same (that is btw also true for HTDAAB with more people having it as worst than best). Over 30% of all respondents name it the most underrated album in U2s catalogue which indicates that a lot of people love it although it might not be their number one album. 30% is not small numbers.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 10:32:35 AM by Rasmus »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2018, 10:00:30 AM »
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Its not a bad album... the problem is that U2 were an extraordinary band for the first 20 years of their career and all new releases from them will be compared to the masterpieces from the 80's and 90's.

Much of the bands best music has been recorded in the 00s and 10s. "Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own", Miracle Drug, Walk On, Kite, Winter, and Mercy are all songs that  I consider to be in the 20 greatest U2 songs of all time.

Different strokes for different folks 8). Of the songs you mention I would only consider Kite to be a top 20 contender and it would have to fight quite hard to get it ;D.

Another thing, Pop and Zooropa have never really been considered Masterpieces. All That You Can't Leave Behind and How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb on the other hand have 15 Grammy award wins between them and have sold a combined 23 million copies worldwide. Most people consider them masterpieces which they are.

Maybe the general public who mainly know U2 by their big singles (With or Without You, Beautiful Day, Vertigo) but the consensus is different amongst U2 fans. I actually like ATYCLB a lot and I think it's a very special album... the problems started after that ;D. HTDAAB should never have won so many grammies but the timing of the album was quite good.

U2 won 8 Grammy awards for HTDAAB and Steve Lillywhite won a grammy award as producer of the year for his work on the album, which makes How To Dismantle And Atomic Bomb the album to win the most Grammy awards in history with 9!

In my opinion, its U2's best album with the exception of Achtung Baby and the Joshua Tree.

The Pop album is a failed album in that the band needed to spend at least 6 more months working on it, to include re-writing some of the songs as well as re-recording others. It was an unfinished album rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. The band have admitted that and have said its a mistake they would never make again.

Yet Pop is a far superior album to HTDAAB in many U2 fans opinion. HTDAAB recently scored the lowest of all U2 albums in a poll done on Interference where U2 fans were asked to rate all the bands songs (1-10). I wont deny that its a more popular album in the general population though. The fact that it won 9 grammy's makes very little sense to me, but then again the grammies does not exactly have a reputation for hitting the mark.

Well, the Grammy academy has 17,000 members who vote. They all work in the music industry and are involve in the production of music. Artist, song writers, producers, studio engineers, musicians. They are all involved in actually making music. So, yep, I think their vote does matter. It is definitely an informed vote from people involved in making music. A poll of a hundred people on interference.com is a tiny section, of people who are fans of U2. As a matter of fact, I think there were only 20 or 30 people involved in the poll your referencing from interference which is not a representative sample of anything.

Hell, if U2 did a club tour for die hard fans, the 30 people who took that poll wouldn't even be significant fraction of the people they would play to.

By the way, if you don't think How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb deserved to win album of the year, which album do you think did deserve to win in the October 2004 to October 2005 time period?

The members of U2 prefer the work they did on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb by a mile. Look at how often they play songs from that album live as compared to Pop. Bono even said its their best album next to Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. The members of U2 generally view the Pop/Popmart era has a mistake and flawed period in the bands history. Again, Pop was not finished, it was rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. What's strange is the small segment of people who are such fans of a half baked piece of work.

50-100 people who are from a hardcore U2 fan site is more representative of hardcore U2 fans opinions than 17.000 people who are from the general public. The fact that a jury is from the music industry means little to nothing as music is taste and not science. I can mention a lot of examples where the jury has been completely ignorant especially in cases such as heavy music where they just dont seem to have a single clue. The members of U2 might prefer HTDAAB because it did better commercially and thus attract more people to their live shows. Also I dont agree with a lot of musical/political decisions that U2 makes these days so no surprise that I dont agree with them on this one either. BTW Bono has stated several times that PopMart is the tour he is most proud of so its not so clear cut.

I dont remember many albums from the era 2004-05 which might explain why Bomb won. Just based on memory I think my favorite album from 2005 was by Robyn. Also Gorillaz and Kanye I think have more iconic albums from that era.

Those 17,000 people are not members of the general public, they are members of the academy. You only get to be a member of the academy if your actually involved with the production of music, like writing a song, producing album for an artist, an artist in the music industry, a recording studio engineer etc. Those are objective opinions from people involved in the creation of music for a living. Its an objective and unique voice and it does mean something to win an award from the academy. 28 people from a U2 fan website is not really representative of anything.

Very telling that you like Robyn, Gorilaz and Kanye over U2's masterpiece HTDAAB. I'm glad the academy felt differently. Looks like they may be more fans of U2 than some who allege to be hardcore fans.

What about 3000+ people from AtU2s survey as brought up by another member? Still dont mean anything?

The fact that you try to use personal taste against me says more about you than me. I also never said I liked Gorillaz or Kanye only that I think their albums from that time is more iconic. I seem to pi*s you off for having an opinion that differs from yours.

Offline wons

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »
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Its not a bad album... the problem is that U2 were an extraordinary band for the first 20 years of their career and all new releases from them will be compared to the masterpieces from the 80's and 90's.

Much of the bands best music has been recorded in the 00s and 10s. "Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own", Miracle Drug, Walk On, Kite, Winter, and Mercy are all songs that  I consider to be in the 20 greatest U2 songs of all time.

Different strokes for different folks 8). Of the songs you mention I would only consider Kite to be a top 20 contender and it would have to fight quite hard to get it ;D.

Another thing, Pop and Zooropa have never really been considered Masterpieces. All That You Can't Leave Behind and How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb on the other hand have 15 Grammy award wins between them and have sold a combined 23 million copies worldwide. Most people consider them masterpieces which they are.

Maybe the general public who mainly know U2 by their big singles (With or Without You, Beautiful Day, Vertigo) but the consensus is different amongst U2 fans. I actually like ATYCLB a lot and I think it's a very special album... the problems started after that ;D. HTDAAB should never have won so many grammies but the timing of the album was quite good.

U2 won 8 Grammy awards for HTDAAB and Steve Lillywhite won a grammy award as producer of the year for his work on the album, which makes How To Dismantle And Atomic Bomb the album to win the most Grammy awards in history with 9!

In my opinion, its U2's best album with the exception of Achtung Baby and the Joshua Tree.

The Pop album is a failed album in that the band needed to spend at least 6 more months working on it, to include re-writing some of the songs as well as re-recording others. It was an unfinished album rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. The band have admitted that and have said its a mistake they would never make again.

Yet Pop is a far superior album to HTDAAB in many U2 fans opinion. HTDAAB recently scored the lowest of all U2 albums in a poll done on Interference where U2 fans were asked to rate all the bands songs (1-10). I wont deny that its a more popular album in the general population though. The fact that it won 9 grammy's makes very little sense to me, but then again the grammies does not exactly have a reputation for hitting the mark.

Well, the Grammy academy has 17,000 members who vote. They all work in the music industry and are involve in the production of music. Artist, song writers, producers, studio engineers, musicians. They are all involved in actually making music. So, yep, I think their vote does matter. It is definitely an informed vote from people involved in making music. A poll of a hundred people on interference.com is a tiny section, of people who are fans of U2. As a matter of fact, I think there were only 20 or 30 people involved in the poll your referencing from interference which is not a representative sample of anything.

Hell, if U2 did a club tour for die hard fans, the 30 people who took that poll wouldn't even be significant fraction of the people they would play to.

By the way, if you don't think How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb deserved to win album of the year, which album do you think did deserve to win in the October 2004 to October 2005 time period?

The members of U2 prefer the work they did on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb by a mile. Look at how often they play songs from that album live as compared to Pop. Bono even said its their best album next to Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. The members of U2 generally view the Pop/Popmart era has a mistake and flawed period in the bands history. Again, Pop was not finished, it was rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. What's strange is the small segment of people who are such fans of a half baked piece of work.

50-100 people who are from a hardcore U2 fan site is more representative of hardcore U2 fans opinions than 17.000 people who are from the general public. The fact that a jury is from the music industry means little to nothing as music is taste and not science. I can mention a lot of examples where the jury has been completely ignorant especially in cases such as heavy music where they just dont seem to have a single clue. The members of U2 might prefer HTDAAB because it did better commercially and thus attract more people to their live shows. Also I dont agree with a lot of musical/political decisions that U2 makes these days so no surprise that I dont agree with them on this one either. BTW Bono has stated several times that PopMart is the tour he is most proud of so its not so clear cut.

I dont remember many albums from the era 2004-05 which might explain why Bomb won. Just based on memory I think my favorite album from 2005 was by Robyn. Also Gorillaz and Kanye I think have more iconic albums from that era.

Those 17,000 people are not members of the general public, they are members of the academy. You only get to be a member of the academy if your actually involved with the production of music, like writing a song, producing album for an artist, an artist in the music industry, a recording studio engineer etc. Those are objective opinions from people involved in the creation of music for a living. Its an objective and unique voice and it does mean something to win an award from the academy. 28 people from a U2 fan website is not really representative of anything.

Very telling that you like Robyn, Gorilaz and Kanye over U2's masterpiece HTDAAB. I'm glad the academy felt differently. Looks like they may be more fans of U2 than some who allege to be hardcore fans.

What about 3000+ people from AtU2s survey as brought up by another member? Still dont mean anything?

Now that has some credibility. But I still would not consider it 100% accurate assessment of what the hardcore U2 fanbase thinks, let alone the more casual U2 fanbase.

I also wonder about a natural bias that occurs over time in which old music is favored over more recent music, especially with an aging fanbase. What's familiar and loved is always satisfying to the music listener. There is always a natural resistance to liking or loving something that is new, especially as one gets older. Whatever the age, it always takes time to get to know a new album before you can objectively  render a judgement on it. If you never put the time in to listen to it, then its unlikely ones opinion will be very positive. A lot of U2's newer music would be loved by more people if they would give it more of a chance I think. But many don't and that influences their thoughts on the album. They listen to it once or twice and then run back to what is familiar and easily loved and enjoyed.

Offline Luzita

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2018, 08:53:15 AM »
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Its not a bad album... the problem is that U2 were an extraordinary band for the first 20 years of their career and all new releases from them will be compared to the masterpieces from the 80's and 90's.

Much of the bands best music has been recorded in the 00s and 10s. "Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own", Miracle Drug, Walk On, Kite, Winter, and Mercy are all songs that  I consider to be in the 20 greatest U2 songs of all time.

Different strokes for different folks 8). Of the songs you mention I would only consider Kite to be a top 20 contender and it would have to fight quite hard to get it ;D.

Another thing, Pop and Zooropa have never really been considered Masterpieces. All That You Can't Leave Behind and How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb on the other hand have 15 Grammy award wins between them and have sold a combined 23 million copies worldwide. Most people consider them masterpieces which they are.

Maybe the general public who mainly know U2 by their big singles (With or Without You, Beautiful Day, Vertigo) but the consensus is different amongst U2 fans. I actually like ATYCLB a lot and I think it's a very special album... the problems started after that ;D. HTDAAB should never have won so many grammies but the timing of the album was quite good.

U2 won 8 Grammy awards for HTDAAB and Steve Lillywhite won a grammy award as producer of the year for his work on the album, which makes How To Dismantle And Atomic Bomb the album to win the most Grammy awards in history with 9!

In my opinion, its U2's best album with the exception of Achtung Baby and the Joshua Tree.

The Pop album is a failed album in that the band needed to spend at least 6 more months working on it, to include re-writing some of the songs as well as re-recording others. It was an unfinished album rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. The band have admitted that and have said its a mistake they would never make again.

Yet Pop is a far superior album to HTDAAB in many U2 fans opinion. HTDAAB recently scored the lowest of all U2 albums in a poll done on Interference where U2 fans were asked to rate all the bands songs (1-10). I wont deny that its a more popular album in the general population though. The fact that it won 9 grammy's makes very little sense to me, but then again the grammies does not exactly have a reputation for hitting the mark.

Well, the Grammy academy has 17,000 members who vote. They all work in the music industry and are involve in the production of music. Artist, song writers, producers, studio engineers, musicians. They are all involved in actually making music. So, yep, I think their vote does matter. It is definitely an informed vote from people involved in making music. A poll of a hundred people on interference.com is a tiny section, of people who are fans of U2. As a matter of fact, I think there were only 20 or 30 people involved in the poll your referencing from interference which is not a representative sample of anything.

Hell, if U2 did a club tour for die hard fans, the 30 people who took that poll wouldn't even be significant fraction of the people they would play to.

By the way, if you don't think How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb deserved to win album of the year, which album do you think did deserve to win in the October 2004 to October 2005 time period?

The members of U2 prefer the work they did on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb by a mile. Look at how often they play songs from that album live as compared to Pop. Bono even said its their best album next to Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. The members of U2 generally view the Pop/Popmart era has a mistake and flawed period in the bands history. Again, Pop was not finished, it was rushed out the door to meet a tour deadline. What's strange is the small segment of people who are such fans of a half baked piece of work.

50-100 people who are from a hardcore U2 fan site is more representative of hardcore U2 fans opinions than 17.000 people who are from the general public. The fact that a jury is from the music industry means little to nothing as music is taste and not science. I can mention a lot of examples where the jury has been completely ignorant especially in cases such as heavy music where they just dont seem to have a single clue. The members of U2 might prefer HTDAAB because it did better commercially and thus attract more people to their live shows. Also I dont agree with a lot of musical/political decisions that U2 makes these days so no surprise that I dont agree with them on this one either. BTW Bono has stated several times that PopMart is the tour he is most proud of so its not so clear cut.

I dont remember many albums from the era 2004-05 which might explain why Bomb won. Just based on memory I think my favorite album from 2005 was by Robyn. Also Gorillaz and Kanye I think have more iconic albums from that era.

It may be true that music industry people are not very representative of hardcore U2 fans, but the @U2 survey participants are, and the sample size is MUCH bigger than for the Interference poll.

When you say 50-100 people from a hardcore U2 fan site, I presume you're talking about the Interference poll, but that had 28 participants, not 50-100.

On the other hand, the @U2 survey question about least favorite album had 3865 respondents. Based on that, Pop is more unpopular than HTDAAB.

You clearly prefer Pop to HTDAAB and you are totally entitled to your opinion, but you should not mistake your preferences for the majority opinion of U2 fans, even of hardcore U2 fans.

I never said the majority of U2 fans share my opinions - thats your words not mine. I said its a different consensus among U2 fans which it quite clearly is - a lot of U2 fans rate Pop higher than HTDAAB and using arguments about sales figures and grammy wins is not valid measure of musical quality in my opinion. I wasn't even the one bringing Pop into the conversation - i commented on SOE ;D

EDIT: I also just looked at the survey you mention. Could only find from 2016 so i guess thats the latest version. As FAvorite U2 album HTDAAB has 1,6% and Pop has 3,0%. As Least Favorite U2 album HTDAAB has 5,3% and Pop has 9,08%. As Most Underrated U2 album HTDAAB has 4,35% and Pop has 30,92% (and wins the category by a huge margin). So I dont agree with your statement that is solely based on the category of least favorite - that is a quite biased way at looking at the numbers.

The reason that I looked at the least favorite album question is because you brought up the Interference poll, and said that HTDAAB being rated least favorite on average (not counting OS1) by 28 people is evidence of the consensus among hardcore U2 fans. That is such a small sample it doesn't necessarily mean much. I looked at the same question in a survey that includes thousands of people, which is a FAR less biased way of looking at the numbers.

You're right that the other questions in the survey are interesting as well. Pop is more likely to be rated best album than HTDAAB, while also being more likely to be rated worst album. I think that's an indication that Pop is a polarizing album, but with more hardcore fans hating it than loving it. The results of the other question, about most underrated album, are probably related to that. The minority that likes the album thinks it is underrated by the majority that dislikes it.

I agree that Pop is a polarizing album but you cant conclude that more hardcore fans hate it than love it. You can conclude that more people have it as worst than best which is not the same (that is btw also true for HTDAAB with more people having it as worst than best). Over 30% of all respondents name it the most underrated album in U2s catalogue which indicates that a lot of people love it although it might not be their number one album. 30% is not small numbers.

I think you *can* say that more people probably hate it than love it given the best/worst ratio, though as you point out the same is true for HTDAAB, though with lower numbers on both ends since it is a less polarizing album. But I get what you’re saying regarding the survey only giving us people’s picks for best/worst as opposed to, say, top 5 and bottom 5. I think you’re right the 30% on the underrated question represents people who love/like Pop. That leaves 70% who hate/dislike it or are at best meh about it. An album can’t be considered underrated if it is well-regarded by most.


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Offline laoghaire

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2018, 10:05:02 AM »
You can't conclude from the data point of 30% rating Pop at the most underrated album that the other 70% dislike or are even meh about it.

For example, 50% might have rated it the SECOND most underrated album after their first choice, leaving only 20% who disliked it (again, just an illustrative example).

So we just don't have the data on that either way.

Offline Luzita

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2018, 12:18:06 PM »
I agree that the nature of the survey questions doesn’t allow us to say for certain what the overall like/dislike ratios are for Pop. That is why I said “probably” and “I think.” I’m talking about the most likely interpretation of the data we do have with regard to that question.

We know that hardcore U2 fans are three times more likely to rate it worst album than they are to rate it best album. We know that it is the third most likely to be rated worst album, after OS1 and October. We know that 30% call it the most underrated album. The kind of scenario you suggested, where a large group would call it second most underrated, isn’t very plausible because, again, an album cannot be underrated if it is well regarded to begin with.

The most likely explanation for the data we have is that Pop is a polarizing album that is disliked by most hardcore fans but highly regarded by a minority who go to bat for it by voting it most underrated. And by posting some rather extreme comments in its defense, which is something I have definitely noticed.


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Offline laoghaire

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2018, 01:57:15 PM »
My post was pretty dry. I don't care that much.

Offline Luzita

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U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2018, 02:06:36 PM »
I didn’t mean to imply your post was extreme; it wasn’t at all. I was talking about some other comments I’ve seen.


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« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:21:55 PM by Luzita »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2018, 02:26:00 AM »
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I agree that the nature of the survey questions doesn’t allow us to say for certain what the overall like/dislike ratios are for Pop. That is why I said “probably” and “I think.” I’m talking about the most likely interpretation of the data we do have with regard to that question.

We know that hardcore U2 fans are three times more likely to rate it worst album than they are to rate it best album. We know that it is the third most likely to be rated worst album, after OS1 and October. We know that 30% call it the most underrated album. The kind of scenario you suggested, where a large group would call it second most underrated, isn’t very plausible because, again, an album cannot be underrated if it is well regarded to begin with.

The most likely explanation for the data we have is that Pop is a polarizing album that is disliked by most hardcore fans but highly regarded by a minority who go to bat for it by voting it most underrated. And by posting some rather extreme comments in its defense, which is something I have definitely noticed.


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I still think you make a lot of conclusions that you simply cannot make based on the data. First off it is absolutely possible that a lot of fans have it as second most underated album - you have no basis to conclude that this is not the case. It is also not correct that album cannot be well regarded and underrated at the same time - this is clearly possible when an album is polarizing and it would also be possible if an album is generally considered "good" but a lot of people find it to be the best - then it could be considered "underrated" by those fans. Also its about a third of all U2 fans that consider it underrated which is just huge numbers compared to the numbers who have at as first or last. The fact that you call it "disliked by most hardcore fans" is just plain wrong.

Offline wons

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2018, 10:17:50 AM »
Anyone know how many times U2 have played songs from Pop live since the year 2000?

Offline Luzita

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2018, 11:15:43 AM »
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I agree that the nature of the survey questions doesn’t allow us to say for certain what the overall like/dislike ratios are for Pop. That is why I said “probably” and “I think.” I’m talking about the most likely interpretation of the data we do have with regard to that question.

We know that hardcore U2 fans are three times more likely to rate it worst album than they are to rate it best album. We know that it is the third most likely to be rated worst album, after OS1 and October. We know that 30% call it the most underrated album. The kind of scenario you suggested, where a large group would call it second most underrated, isn’t very plausible because, again, an album cannot be underrated if it is well regarded to begin with.

The most likely explanation for the data we have is that Pop is a polarizing album that is disliked by most hardcore fans but highly regarded by a minority who go to bat for it by voting it most underrated. And by posting some rather extreme comments in its defense, which is something I have definitely noticed.


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I still think you make a lot of conclusions that you simply cannot make based on the data. First off it is absolutely possible that a lot of fans have it as second most underated album - you have no basis to conclude that this is not the case. It is also not correct that album cannot be well regarded and underrated at the same time - this is clearly possible when an album is polarizing and it would also be possible if an album is generally considered "good" but a lot of people find it to be the best - then it could be considered "underrated" by those fans. Also its about a third of all U2 fans that consider it underrated which is just huge numbers compared to the numbers who have at as first or last. The fact that you call it "disliked by most hardcore fans" is just plain wrong.

I clearly stated that I don't know for sure it is disliked by most hardcore fans. I just think that is the most likely interpretation of the evidence. By saying that is "just plain wrong," you are the one drawing unsupported conclusions. You don't know that it's wrong.

Regarding some of the other things you said:

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It is also not correct that album cannot be well regarded and underrated at the same time - this is clearly possible when an album is polarizing
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's well regarded by a minority but not by the majority, therefore the minority think it's underrated.

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it is absolutely possible that a lot of fans have it as second most underated album - you have no basis to conclude that this is not the case.

It's not impossible but it isn't likely. If a majority of fans like it enough to think it's underrated, then it isn't underrated to begin with. It's generally well regarded. See what I'm saying? Again, not impossible -- maybe a person would call it underrated because most people find it meh but they think it should be considered good. Or maybe they think it's underrated because they think it should be considered middle-of-the-road whereas most people think it's lower than that. There are a lot of ways to interpret this. Plus it involves perceptions on the part of the people who think it's underrated about how other people rate it, which might not be correct. But, IMO, the most likely interpretation is that the 30% represents people who like/love the album but have reason to believe most fans don't feel that way.

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it would also be possible if an album is generally considered "good" but a lot of people find it to be the best - then it could be considered "underrated" by those fans.

But we know this isn't the case as only 3% rate it the best. That would account for only a small fraction of the 30% who think it's underrated.

Offline SwimmingSorrows

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2018, 08:08:10 PM »
Seeing all the articles and comments and general internet fervor surrounding just the announcement of the new Arctic Monkeys album has put SOE's release in perspective for me.  It was really a non-event.  U2 have very few young fans.

Offline wons

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2018, 10:16:48 PM »
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Seeing all the articles and comments and general internet fervor surrounding just the announcement of the new Arctic Monkeys album has put SOE's release in perspective for me.  It was really a non-event.  U2 have very few young fans.

Do you live in the United States? Because in the United States, the Arctic Monkeys are not burning up the charts exactly. They have had some moderate success in the United States, but have only one song to ever crack the HOT 100 singles chart, which is the national singles chart in the United States. That one song, "Do I Wanna Know?" peaked at #70.

Their new album is not out to May 11, 2018, so we won't know until about a week after if its a major invent or not based on sales.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 10:18:36 PM by wons »

Offline SwimmingSorrows

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2018, 12:52:07 AM »
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Seeing all the articles and comments and general internet fervor surrounding just the announcement of the new Arctic Monkeys album has put SOE's release in perspective for me.  It was really a non-event.  U2 have very few young fans.

Do you live in the United States? Because in the United States, the Arctic Monkeys are not burning up the charts exactly. They have had some moderate success in the United States, but have only one song to ever crack the HOT 100 singles chart, which is the national singles chart in the United States. That one song, "Do I Wanna Know?" peaked at #70.

Their new album is not out to May 11, 2018, so we won't know until about a week after if its a major invent or not based on sales.

One song cracking the Hot 100 is a damn sight better than U2 have been doing as of late, and I was referring to internet discussion and fan response.  They clearly have a lot more fans online and among people my age was my point.  Look at the Spotify streaming numbers.  Do I Wanna Know, 464 million.  Nothing U2 has released since Beautiful Day has cracked 35 million.  The least-streamed song on AM has 45 million.

Offline wons

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Re: U2 drops from #1 to #13 in top 200 billboard
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2018, 09:16:05 AM »
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Seeing all the articles and comments and general internet fervor surrounding just the announcement of the new Arctic Monkeys album has put SOE's release in perspective for me.  It was really a non-event.  U2 have very few young fans.

Do you live in the United States? Because in the United States, the Arctic Monkeys are not burning up the charts exactly. They have had some moderate success in the United States, but have only one song to ever crack the HOT 100 singles chart, which is the national singles chart in the United States. That one song, "Do I Wanna Know?" peaked at #70.

Their new album is not out to May 11, 2018, so we won't know until about a week after if its a major invent or not based on sales.

One song cracking the Hot 100 is a damn sight better than U2 have been doing as of late, and I was referring to internet discussion and fan response.  They clearly have a lot more fans online and among people my age was my point.  Look at the Spotify streaming numbers.  Do I Wanna Know, 464 million.  Nothing U2 has released since Beautiful Day has cracked 35 million.  The least-streamed song on AM has 45 million.

Do you know how many streams on Spotify "You're The Best Thing About Me" has?

Still, I think we need to see some numbers for the lastest album and its songs before we start saying that a band like Arctic Monkeys is more popular than U2 in the United States.

By the way, U2 have had 30 songs crack the HOT 100 in their career. Arctic Monkeys last tour in the United States had them playing in primarily theaters and mid-level halls, in the 2,000 to 7,000 capacity range even in big cities. That's not very big at all. But, maybe the new tour will see a move to larger venues.