Author Topic: LIBTAIIW Video  (Read 4578 times)

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Offline missey

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
I love the song and really like the video.  I thought it had an 80's punk vibe to it, some of the people looked right out of that era. 

Offline Achtung Bubba

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2018, 10:40:57 AM »
Love is bigger than everything else, but it's important to be clear on what love is.

Love is sacrificing to give a person what he needs, not what he deserves and not NECESSARILY what he wants.

My problem with the song's lyrics, magnified by the video, is that it may be communicating the mistaken belief that loving everyone in an eclectic community entails accepting every part of every person's lifestyle.

There's no room in that position for honest, good-faith, AND LOVING disagreement about what behaviors are harmful or otherwise in discord with the world around us and/or God's revealed will for us, even when that disagreement is rooted in a belief that God created us in His image, loves us passionately, and wants only what is best for us.

Going by the Gospels, we see that Jesus didn't try to find a balance between love and the law -- a compromise between accepting hurting, fallen humanity and affirming God's exacting moral standards.  Instead, He carried out both callings to the utmost -- not only in His teachings, but (equally important) in His own actions as well -- simultaneously assuring the worst sinner of the fact of God's love *AND* calling the most conscientious saint to ever higher (and deeper) holiness through faith in that love which sent Him to the cross.

That combination is a hard thing to live out, as astounding as the most dramatic miracles of walking on water and raising the dead; it cannot be done without God's help, few of Jesus' followers do it well, and only Jesus alone did it perfectly.

It's probably a hard thing even to communicate in a short music video, and I don't expect a band and the director to try, but particularly from a band whose members so often wear their Christian faith on their sleeves, I would have preferred to see more care not to communicate an idea that competes with and even contradicts that essential combination of grace and truth.

Offline SwimmingSorrows

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2018, 12:29:27 PM »
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Love is bigger than everything else, but it's important to be clear on what love is.

Love is sacrificing to give a person what he needs, not what he deserves and not NECESSARILY what he wants.

My problem with the song's lyrics, magnified by the video, is that it may be communicating the mistaken belief that loving everyone in an eclectic community entails accepting every part of every person's lifestyle.

There's no room in that position for honest, good-faith, AND LOVING disagreement about what behaviors are harmful or otherwise in discord with the world around us and/or God's revealed will for us, even when that disagreement is rooted in a belief that God created us in His image, loves us passionately, and wants only what is best for us.

Going by the Gospels, we see that Jesus didn't try to find a balance between love and the law -- a compromise between accepting hurting, fallen humanity and affirming God's exacting moral standards.  Instead, He carried out both callings to the utmost -- not only in His teachings, but (equally important) in His own actions as well -- simultaneously assuring the worst sinner of the fact of God's love *AND* calling the most conscientious saint to ever higher (and deeper) holiness through faith in that love which sent Him to the cross.

That combination is a hard thing to live out, as astounding as the most dramatic miracles of walking on water and raising the dead; it cannot be done without God's help, few of Jesus' followers do it well, and only Jesus alone did it perfectly.

It's probably a hard thing even to communicate in a short music video, and I don't expect a band and the director to try, but particularly from a band whose members so often wear their Christian faith on their sleeves, I would have preferred to see more care not to communicate an idea that competes with and even contradicts that essential combination of grace and truth.

I don't think anyone can define what love is for anyone else.  My love for others is what it is, as is your's, and there is nothing any man, woman, god, or government can do about it.

Offline Sunchild

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2018, 12:40:27 PM »
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Does "One" leave a bad taste in your mouth as well for addressing "tenuous" issues?
The song is written so well that it can be interpreted in many ways.  LIBTAIIW can likewise be interpreted differently by many listeners.

Regarding the videos, those produced for One weren't shouting any obvious angle in particular.  They didn't seem forced.  The LIBTAIIW video is different.

Bono has said that One is about a gay man trying to reconcile with his homophobic father. That hasn’t prevented the song from taking on much wider topics. There is nothing about Love Is Bigger that changes that. And U2 did an entire video and photo shoot for One in drag. Did that not have an obvious angle?

It only had an obvious angle IF the viewer knows about the quote, otherwise the imagery of U2 dressed as women merely entices the viewer to think about what is being presented.  A viewer can watch the video and come away with a variety of interpretations.  This is nearly impossible with LIBTAIIW: there's pretty much only one way to interpret what is being said.

So Stuck In A Moment is only about being hit by a car or American football, because the music video is the only thing that can inform the meaning of a song. Gotcha.

Any reasonable viewer of the videos you cite understands that those scenes being played out are visual metaphors for the song.  This is not the case with the LIBTAIIW video.  There is nothing metaphorical about it.

Thanks, though, for abandoning reasonable conversation for sarcasm and possible deliberate obtuseness.

Alrighty, I've thought through every single other non-live performance U2 video and there's not a single one I can come up with that is literal. Not one. Not water patterns Staring At The Sun or sheets coming off buildings Magnificent or we're in a circus All I Want Is You or my fingers have hands Even Better Than The Real Thing. None of them have been literal that I can think of, and so I take the Love Is Bigger video as being a specific instance of conveyance of a larger message. Just like the rest of them. No U2 music video is a literal expression of what the song is about, but they all include elements to frame the song. This one included.

I'll say it upfront: I'm gay. One of the things that has interested me about U2 is that they've been cool with people like me, even when many other rock bands (and their fans) haven't been. I've just sat back and thought about it and I believe U2 have released 81 music videos. Two, just two, have dealt with ideas of sexuality that are potentially not heterosexual. Mind you, I have never seen frustration when a U2 video shows up with a man and a woman kissing. Never seen frustration with that. But one, just one clearly gay video shows up in their 40+ year career and people start expressing frustrations that it has ruined the song for them.

I share the same notion as a transsexual person. I think that people that are of the minority have the privelege to see the world unlike the most, the world imprisoned by people's own minds, their hypocrisy, blindness, and general disability to feel and experience love beyond the physical differences, the body or lifestyles that connects and embraces all people. You got minority accepting things of the majority, but the majority can't accept those values and expressions of the minority. Sometimes I wish more people could see what some of the LGBT people can see, or perhaps just any outsider when it comes to their sexual expressions. Sexual part seems like very important and touchy, when it comes to censorship and other things, it is a very misunderstood, wounded and unevolved energy among many people, and people project it on others mingled with fear. That creates such an intense energy of hate and separation.

I love the message of U2 music and this song, it helped me to find God and teach God's love to be free who we are inside, not on the outside deceived by this false illusory world, their music conveys the truth that is not religious by the bible that distorted Yeshua's original teachings, but deeply embedded in the heart, the cosmos, the source of the universe, the truth not of the belief, but of the deep mindless state of consciousness, often reached during transcendental experiences of meditations. The truth that is unconditional love carrying without exception full acceptance, surrender and allowance of all God's creation and its free expressions, wars, murders, rapes, greed, all of it, no separation in divine love, where disagreement and allowance are two entirely different things freely going hand in hand. That is why the music is always so pure, speaking the language of this very truth, where the music reminds me of who we are, the harmony, flowing freely with all the existence.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 06:35:34 AM by Sunchild »

Offline shineinthesummernight

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2018, 05:22:49 PM »
I wish people wouldn't impose their view of Christianity and assume that every Christian feels the same, as though Christianity is some sort of monolithic thought system.  I do not agree with the assertion that only heterosexual love is acceptable love.  Although I'm Christian and heterosexual, I believe that God is accepting of different kinds of love.  And please do not use St. Paul's very first century ideas as a cudgel against a way of life that upsets you personally.  If you're honest, I think you'd have to admit that it is your personal bias and that putting a religious slant on it just makes it easier for you to maintain that viewpoint.

Offline dirtdrybonesandstone

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »
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Love is bigger than everything else, but it's important to be clear on what love is.

Love is sacrificing to give a person what he needs, not what he deserves and not NECESSARILY what he wants.

My problem with the song's lyrics, magnified by the video, is that it may be communicating the mistaken belief that loving everyone in an eclectic community entails accepting every part of every person's lifestyle.

There's no room in that position for honest, good-faith, AND LOVING disagreement about what behaviors are harmful or otherwise in discord with the world around us and/or God's revealed will for us, even when that disagreement is rooted in a belief that God created us in His image, loves us passionately, and wants only what is best for us.

Going by the Gospels, we see that Jesus didn't try to find a balance between love and the law -- a compromise between accepting hurting, fallen humanity and affirming God's exacting moral standards.  Instead, He carried out both callings to the utmost -- not only in His teachings, but (equally important) in His own actions as well -- simultaneously assuring the worst sinner of the fact of God's love *AND* calling the most conscientious saint to ever higher (and deeper) holiness through faith in that love which sent Him to the cross.

That combination is a hard thing to live out, as astounding as the most dramatic miracles of walking on water and raising the dead; it cannot be done without God's help, few of Jesus' followers do it well, and only Jesus alone did it perfectly.

It's probably a hard thing even to communicate in a short music video, and I don't expect a band and the director to try, but particularly from a band whose members so often wear their Christian faith on their sleeves, I would have preferred to see more care not to communicate an idea that competes with and even contradicts that essential combination of grace and truth.

FWIW, I would suspect the lyric to this song was originally ‘His love is bigger than anything in its way’.

Offline Luzita

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LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2018, 08:40:51 PM »
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I wish people wouldn't impose their view of Christianity and assume that every Christian feels the same, as though Christianity is some sort of monolithic thought system.  I do not agree with the assertion that only heterosexual love is acceptable love.  Although I'm Christian and heterosexual, I believe that God is accepting of different kinds of love.  And please do not use St. Paul's very first century ideas as a cudgel against a way of life that upsets you personally.  If you're honest, I think you'd have to admit that it is your personal bias and that putting a religious slant on it just makes it easier for you to maintain that viewpoint.
I personally believe the anti-homosexual passages in the Bible are not directed against people who are constitutionally gay but against certain practices that existed in Paul’s Greco-Roman world and in some cultures in Old Testament times. We tend to project our own society’s attitudes about sexual orientation back into the ancient past, without appreciating how different those cultures were. For example pederasty, men using boys for sexual pleasure, was common and socially accepted in the society that surrounded the early Christians, along with homosexual indulgence by basically heterosexual men. It wasn’t about expressing their fundamental nature, it really was just about sex.

Of course our society seems to be headed in that direction again, what with all the trendy talk of “heteroflexibilty.”


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« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 08:42:33 PM by Luzita »

Offline miryclay

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2018, 08:41:37 PM »
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Love is bigger than everything else, but it's important to be clear on what love is.

Love is sacrificing to give a person what he needs, not what he deserves and not NECESSARILY what he wants.

My problem with the song's lyrics, magnified by the video, is that it may be communicating the mistaken belief that loving everyone in an eclectic community entails accepting every part of every person's lifestyle.

There's no room in that position for honest, good-faith, AND LOVING disagreement about what behaviors are harmful or otherwise in discord with the world around us and/or God's revealed will for us, even when that disagreement is rooted in a belief that God created us in His image, loves us passionately, and wants only what is best for us.

Going by the Gospels, we see that Jesus didn't try to find a balance between love and the law -- a compromise between accepting hurting, fallen humanity and affirming God's exacting moral standards.  Instead, He carried out both callings to the utmost -- not only in His teachings, but (equally important) in His own actions as well -- simultaneously assuring the worst sinner of the fact of God's love *AND* calling the most conscientious saint to ever higher (and deeper) holiness through faith in that love which sent Him to the cross.

That combination is a hard thing to live out, as astounding as the most dramatic miracles of walking on water and raising the dead; it cannot be done without God's help, few of Jesus' followers do it well, and only Jesus alone did it perfectly.

It's probably a hard thing even to communicate in a short music video, and I don't expect a band and the director to try, but particularly from a band whose members so often wear their Christian faith on their sleeves, I would have preferred to see more care not to communicate an idea that competes with and even contradicts that essential combination of grace and truth.

I don't think anyone can define what love is for anyone else.  My love for others is what it is, as is your's, and there is nothing any man, woman, god, or government can do about it.

Agreed. 100 percent feeling based.

Offline SwimmingSorrows

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2018, 11:56:18 PM »
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I wish people wouldn't impose their view of Christianity and assume that every Christian feels the same, as though Christianity is some sort of monolithic thought system.  I do not agree with the assertion that only heterosexual love is acceptable love.  Although I'm Christian and heterosexual, I believe that God is accepting of different kinds of love.  And please do not use St. Paul's very first century ideas as a cudgel against a way of life that upsets you personally.  If you're honest, I think you'd have to admit that it is your personal bias and that putting a religious slant on it just makes it easier for you to maintain that viewpoint.
I personally believe the anti-homosexual passages in the Bible are not directed against people who are constitutionally gay but against certain practices that existed in Paul’s Greco-Roman world and in some cultures in Old Testament times. We tend to project our own society’s attitudes about sexual orientation back into the ancient past, without appreciating how different those cultures were. For example pederasty, men using boys for sexual pleasure, was common and socially accepted in the society that surrounded the early Christians, along with homosexual indulgence by basically heterosexual men. It wasn’t about expressing their fundamental nature, it really was just about sex.

Of course our society seems to be headed in that direction again, what with all the trendy talk of “heteroflexibilty.”


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It is really interesting to look at Greek and Roman history on this.  It seems they had no definitions of sexuality.  Every Roman emperor but one had young male sexual partners.  Caesar was rumored to have taken the "passive role" in an affair with a king from Asia Minor.  That said, Caesar and others were judged for this.  It doesn't seem to have been an issue who Caesar was attracted to but rather that he took the "feminine" position in the affair.  They cared about gender roles, for sure, but seemingly didn't care about or have any concept of sexuality.  Marriage was also more of an economic and political tool than something done for love. 

There is also evidence of homosexuality and gender dysphoria in some emperors.  Hadrian seems never to have cared much for his wives and was almost certainly in love with Antinous, a male lover of his.  He went so far as to deify Antinous and found a city in his honor after his death.  If that isn't romantic, I don't know what is.

There is pretty strong evidence that Elagabalus was transgendered.  He dressed in traditionally female garb and went so far as to seek surgery to give him female genitalia.

It's possible that sexuality really is a spectrum, and that Roman society was accommodating for that.  I would go straight for Stevie Nicks, for example. . . .

« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 11:57:56 PM by SwimmingSorrows »

Offline miryclay

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2018, 06:40:33 AM »
I disagree with 99 percent of what Achtung Buddah says but sadly hetronormative people have a monopoly on the creation act of creating a new life.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 04:30:44 PM by miryclay »

Offline blovesu2

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2018, 09:03:49 AM »
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It may be mid tempo Christian rock on the trite side of the street but no one does that better than U2.

I think its a bit ironic that Bono was quoted saying something along the lines of today's music (or was it rock music?) being too "girly" or some such.....and then releasing THIS song.
 :-\

Offline Luzita

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2018, 11:15:37 AM »
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I wish people wouldn't impose their view of Christianity and assume that every Christian feels the same, as though Christianity is some sort of monolithic thought system.  I do not agree with the assertion that only heterosexual love is acceptable love.  Although I'm Christian and heterosexual, I believe that God is accepting of different kinds of love.  And please do not use St. Paul's very first century ideas as a cudgel against a way of life that upsets you personally.  If you're honest, I think you'd have to admit that it is your personal bias and that putting a religious slant on it just makes it easier for you to maintain that viewpoint.
I personally believe the anti-homosexual passages in the Bible are not directed against people who are constitutionally gay but against certain practices that existed in Paul’s Greco-Roman world and in some cultures in Old Testament times. We tend to project our own society’s attitudes about sexual orientation back into the ancient past, without appreciating how different those cultures were. For example pederasty, men using boys for sexual pleasure, was common and socially accepted in the society that surrounded the early Christians, along with homosexual indulgence by basically heterosexual men. It wasn’t about expressing their fundamental nature, it really was just about sex.

Of course our society seems to be headed in that direction again, what with all the trendy talk of “heteroflexibilty.”


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It is really interesting to look at Greek and Roman history on this.  It seems they had no definitions of sexuality.  Every Roman emperor but one had young male sexual partners.  Caesar was rumored to have taken the "passive role" in an affair with a king from Asia Minor.  That said, Caesar and others were judged for this.  It doesn't seem to have been an issue who Caesar was attracted to but rather that he took the "feminine" position in the affair.  They cared about gender roles, for sure, but seemingly didn't care about or have any concept of sexuality.  Marriage was also more of an economic and political tool than something done for love. 

There is also evidence of homosexuality and gender dysphoria in some emperors.  Hadrian seems never to have cared much for his wives and was almost certainly in love with Antinous, a male lover of his.  He went so far as to deify Antinous and found a city in his honor after his death.  If that isn't romantic, I don't know what is.

There is pretty strong evidence that Elagabalus was transgendered.  He dressed in traditionally female garb and went so far as to seek surgery to give him female genitalia.

It's possible that sexuality really is a spectrum, and that Roman society was accommodating for that.  I would go straight for Stevie Nicks, for example. . . .

When you say "sexuality," I assume you mean sexual orientation. It's true that among the Romans for a man to have sex with another man was considered fine if he was the "top" but shameful if he was the "bottom," i.e. the feminine role. The Greeks didn't have that concept however, even though the status of women in Greek society was even lower than in Roman society.

It's also true that marriage had economic purposes and, among the upper classes, political purposes. That doesn't mean there wasn't also affection and love between husbands and wives -- much of the time, anyway. Nor does it mean that the economic purposes of marriage have gone away in our own society. The basic purpose of marriage is to reinforce pair bonds and family bonds to provide a stable and hopefully economically viable environment for children to grow up in.  That is why marriage is a universal human institution, found in some form in pretty much every culture. It is also why marriage is a basically heterosexual institution, regardless of a society's attitudes toward homosexuality.

Human sexuality is extremely complicated. I think it's true that sexual orientation is a spectrum, but it's a lopsided spectrum. Most people are basically heterosexual, only a minority are gay or bi. But that doesn't mean people can't engage in and even enjoy sexual practices that run counter to their basic orientation, esp. if they are encouraged to do so by their culture.

However, it's hard for love and sex to go together when people go against their basic orientation, which I believe is what God desires for us. And is most perfectly expressed through Christian marriage, IMO. Which is supposed to be an expression of faithful sexual love, and the foundation of parental love and family love, as well as providing for the emotional, spiritual, and practical needs of children. It's all supposed to be integrated. To be sure, in the real world no marriage is perfect and some don't even come close, but that's where I think God wants us to aim. Bono and Ali seem to have done a pretty good job in that department.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 03:06:51 PM by Luzita »

Offline miryclay

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2018, 02:29:50 PM »
The reason many churches have frowned upon homosexuality is because it prioritizes sex for pleasure instead of pro creation. Just saying. That being said, with the horrors that occur in some countries against the LGBT community we in the West should go over and above to ensure safety and equality.

Offline shineinthesummernight

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2018, 03:32:43 PM »
I know a (male) married, gay couple raising a handicapped child together.  I'm pretty sure their union could be characterized as sacramental.

Offline miryclay

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Re: LIBTAIIW Video
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2018, 04:35:55 PM »
No need to get defensive. We understand the total argument. I am just pointing out that actual creation is still reserved for male and female. Not upbringing.