Author Topic: Bono meets Pope Francis  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline shineinthesummernight

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM »
Pope Francis hasn't responded to Cardinal Vigano because he's trying to save the church, not just his reputation.  Also, Vigano did not make the accusation in good faith--you can't call for a Pope to resign and then expect a reasoned response.  Pope Francis practices a Jesuit spiritual practice called "discernment", which sometimes involves waiting for inspiration.  Let's hope it comes from a higher source and comes soon.

Offline laoghaire

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2018, 02:02:13 PM »
Yeah, that all seemed off to me. I have no problems with calls for the Pope to resign, but Cardinal Vigano is coming at this from the wrong place and I don't trust him even if he seems to be on the "right" side.

Offline ShankAsu

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2018, 12:29:53 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


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When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

Offline ShankAsu

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2018, 12:32:22 PM »
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Bono is definitely a spiritual leader to me.  Enough said.
I don't deify musicians.

Offline laoghaire

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2018, 12:34:11 PM »
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Bono is definitely a spiritual leader to me.  Enough said.
I don't deify musicians.

You deify spiritual leaders? That's odd.

Offline ShankAsu

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2018, 01:08:08 PM »
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Bono is definitely a spiritual leader to me.  Enough said.
I don't deify musicians.

You deify spiritual leaders? That's odd.
?
Never said that either, but i don't think many people do- such as the Pope or the Dali Lama.  Just found it odd and off-putting that Bono is considered a spiritual leader on the level of the Pope.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:09:50 PM by ShankAsu »

Offline laoghaire

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2018, 03:02:09 PM »
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Bono is definitely a spiritual leader to me.  Enough said.
I don't deify musicians.

You deify spiritual leaders? That's odd.
?
Never said that either, but i don't think many people do- such as the Pope or the Dali Lama.  Just found it odd and off-putting that Bono is considered a spiritual leader on the level of the Pope.

How do the two statements connect, then?

Someone says she considers Bono a spiritual leader.
Your response is you don't deify musicians.

The only way those statements could be logically connected is if you deify spiritual leaders.

It's also odd that your next argument is that you can't see Bono as a spiritual leader because, I guess, spiritual leaders are the Pope and the Dalai Lama. Are not the local pastors and deacons and so on spiritual leaders? Or, I guess that takes us back to your original position that spiritual leaders are deified, which suggests that the Pope and Dalai Lama are deified, and probably also among the only spritual leaders in the world.

It's cool you don't see Bono as a spiritual leader, but your reasoning seems odd to me.

Offline Tortuga

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2018, 05:12:38 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


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When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

If you donít see Bono criticizing himself then you arenít hearing or reading his interviews.  He is constantly mocking his rockstar status and saying things like he is a poor advertisement for God.

You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.


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Offline ShankAsu

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2018, 05:44:24 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


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When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

If you donít see Bono criticizing himself then you arenít hearing or reading his interviews.  He is constantly mocking his rockstar status and saying things like he is a poor advertisement for God.

You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.


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I'll concede partially on the self-criticism (it's kind of a weak argument, but more tongue in cheek), but i do know when someone is putting people down, and that's what i've taken away from Bono talking about Christians in the US.  I personally think its because they don't see eye to eye on many things outside of religion and i'm not saying who is right, but i do feel like Bono can be condescending.

Offline Tortuga

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Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2018, 07:31:47 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


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When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

If you donít see Bono criticizing himself then you arenít hearing or reading his interviews.  He is constantly mocking his rockstar status and saying things like he is a poor advertisement for God.

You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.


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I'll concede partially on the self-criticism (it's kind of a weak argument, but more tongue in cheek), but i do know when someone is putting people down, and that's what i've taken away from Bono talking about Christians in the US.  I personally think its because they don't see eye to eye on many things outside of religion and i'm not saying who is right, but i do feel like Bono can be condescending.

I donít think telling people they need to think about things differently is condescending.  Thatís basically what pastors and ďspiritual leadersĒ do.  That is their job.  Christians donít feel their preacher is being condescending at the sunday sermon.  That is why they are there.  To be challenged and inspired.  I havenít heard Bonoís message being delivered in a haughty or disrespectful way.   This is typical of what I see as Bonoís delivery style to make people think:

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And a link on how at least some American Christians view his ďspiritual leadership:

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Offline Luzita

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 09:50:01 PM »
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You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.

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The religious message is that ďthe least of theseĒ should have their needs met. Jesus is setting the goal. How we accomplish the goal is where politics comes in.

People with liberal politics believe that government should care for the needy and tend to think anyone who doesnít agree lacks compassion and isnít listening to Jesus. Therefore, they conclude, conservatives are cold and heartless and bad Christians.

But that isnít necessarily true. Iíve seen statistics showing that conservatives give more to charity ó both in money and in time ó than liberals do. I think giving to the poor out of your own pocket requires greater commitment and personal sacrifice than agitating for government to do it.

There are reasons why some people donít like what they consider ďsocialismĒ even though they donít want anyone to go without. Some are afraid of giving government too much power. Some worry about creating a culture of dependency that is not in the ultimate best interests of the people supposedly being helped.

Now, you can also argue that private charity alone canít get the job done, and in a democracy government action represents our values as a society.

It is because of such factors that peopleís politics may differ even though they agree on basic Christian principles.

Offline Tortuga

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2018, 10:33:42 PM »
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You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The religious message is that ďthe least of theseĒ should have their needs met. Jesus is setting the goal. How we accomplish the goal is where politics comes in.

People with liberal politics believe that government should care for the needy and tend to think anyone who doesnít agree lacks compassion and isnít listening to Jesus. Therefore, they conclude, conservatives are cold and heartless and bad Christians.

But that isnít necessarily true. Iíve seen statistics showing that conservatives give more to charity ó both in money and in time ó than liberals do. I think giving to the poor out of your own pocket requires greater commitment and personal sacrifice than agitating for government to do it.

There are reasons why some people donít like what they consider ďsocialismĒ even though they donít want anyone to go without. Some are afraid of giving government too much power. Some worry about creating a culture of dependency that is not in the ultimate best interests of the people supposedly being helped.

Now, you can also argue that private charity alone canít get the job done, and in a democracy government action represents our values as a society.

It is because of such factors that peopleís politics may differ even though they agree on basic Christian principles.

I donít disagree with anything you are saying, in theory.  The problem though, is that in practice, many Christians advocate solving problems of poverty directly instead of through the government.  The ďconservative generosityĒ is largely comprised of tithing to the church.  But if you look at the typical church budget, only a tiny percentage goes to help the poor.  The bulk goes to church facilities.  I donít consider funds that build a basketball gym or fancy facilities giving back to God.  More like a co-op.

Other funds go to helping people but with evangelical strings attached which hinders its effectiveness as aid and sends mixed signals about who Jesus really was.

So as charitable organizations, most churches are highly inefficient.  Ironically, this is the argument many conservatives make against government programs and the liberal approach.

So everything you say is true, but not the whole story and I believe liberals have some very valid points.  And of course Bonoís message to the church was exactly this...the church should be leading the way in helping with extreme poverty and AIDS, which in many cases, it wasnít.  If the church was doing its job, the issue about liberal vs conservative approach would be moot.


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Offline 73October

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 04:34:42 AM »
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 And of course Bonoís message to the church was exactly this...the church should be leading the way in helping with extreme poverty and AIDS, which in many cases, it wasnít.  If the church was doing its job, the issue about liberal vs conservative approach would be moot.


Bono has, and always will be, one of the great critics of the established Church (in whatever format the Church is in).  He is a great contemporary spiritual thinker in the context of (very much) applied theology - think arts and philanthropy.
Bono also is a great political motivator - but his is not a politician.  He has the ability to make politicians and the people alike think though situations and rationalise their thoughts (heck, even some people that critique Bono have rationalised the way they feel - but I repeat, SOME people....there is a way to go with some of the Bono bashers).

Offline Luzita

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2018, 10:17:45 AM »
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You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The religious message is that ďthe least of theseĒ should have their needs met. Jesus is setting the goal. How we accomplish the goal is where politics comes in.

People with liberal politics believe that government should care for the needy and tend to think anyone who doesnít agree lacks compassion and isnít listening to Jesus. Therefore, they conclude, conservatives are cold and heartless and bad Christians.

But that isnít necessarily true. Iíve seen statistics showing that conservatives give more to charity ó both in money and in time ó than liberals do. I think giving to the poor out of your own pocket requires greater commitment and personal sacrifice than agitating for government to do it.

There are reasons why some people donít like what they consider ďsocialismĒ even though they donít want anyone to go without. Some are afraid of giving government too much power. Some worry about creating a culture of dependency that is not in the ultimate best interests of the people supposedly being helped.

Now, you can also argue that private charity alone canít get the job done, and in a democracy government action represents our values as a society.

It is because of such factors that peopleís politics may differ even though they agree on basic Christian principles.

I donít disagree with anything you are saying, in theory.  The problem though, is that in practice, many Christians advocate solving problems of poverty directly instead of through the government.  The ďconservative generosityĒ is largely comprised of tithing to the church.  But if you look at the typical church budget, only a tiny percentage goes to help the poor.  The bulk goes to church facilities.  I donít consider funds that build a basketball gym or fancy facilities giving back to God.  More like a co-op.

Other funds go to helping people but with evangelical strings attached which hinders its effectiveness as aid and sends mixed signals about who Jesus really was.

So as charitable organizations, most churches are highly inefficient.  Ironically, this is the argument many conservatives make against government programs and the liberal approach.

So everything you say is true, but not the whole story and I believe liberals have some very valid points.  And of course Bonoís message to the church was exactly this...the church should be leading the way in helping with extreme poverty and AIDS, which in many cases, it wasnít.  If the church was doing its job, the issue about liberal vs conservative approach would be moot.


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I never said that liberals don't have valid points. In fact I included some of those valid points in my post. And you have raised other valid points, such as that the church wasn't always leading the way -- well, on AIDS it wasn't, for the most part, and Bono actually helped change that.

What I was getting at was that the tendency by liberals to denigrate the compassion of conservatives, or to equate Christian teaching with a particular brand of politics, is not valid. For my part, I want my government to help people in need, but I also very much understand why many are leery of that approach. My own family come from a country where the idea that government would take care of redistribution of wealth led to a small ruling class controlling all the wealth and power and everybody else having nothing, neither material wealth nor rights.  And you shouldn't have to have that sort of thing in your own background to understand how often it has happened.

You say that "conservative generosity" consists of tithing to the church. I'm not sure that's accurate, since I believe I've seen stats showing that conservatives give more to secular charity as well as religious charity. But I don't have the data in front of me so I'm not sure.

Offline Tortuga

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Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2018, 12:56:44 PM »
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You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The religious message is that ďthe least of theseĒ should have their needs met. Jesus is setting the goal. How we accomplish the goal is where politics comes in.

People with liberal politics believe that government should care for the needy and tend to think anyone who doesnít agree lacks compassion and isnít listening to Jesus. Therefore, they conclude, conservatives are cold and heartless and bad Christians.

But that isnít necessarily true. Iíve seen statistics showing that conservatives give more to charity ó both in money and in time ó than liberals do. I think giving to the poor out of your own pocket requires greater commitment and personal sacrifice than agitating for government to do it.

There are reasons why some people donít like what they consider ďsocialismĒ even though they donít want anyone to go without. Some are afraid of giving government too much power. Some worry about creating a culture of dependency that is not in the ultimate best interests of the people supposedly being helped.

Now, you can also argue that private charity alone canít get the job done, and in a democracy government action represents our values as a society.

It is because of such factors that peopleís politics may differ even though they agree on basic Christian principles.

I donít disagree with anything you are saying, in theory.  The problem though, is that in practice, many Christians advocate solving problems of poverty directly instead of through the government.  The ďconservative generosityĒ is largely comprised of tithing to the church.  But if you look at the typical church budget, only a tiny percentage goes to help the poor.  The bulk goes to church facilities.  I donít consider funds that build a basketball gym or fancy facilities giving back to God.  More like a co-op.

Other funds go to helping people but with evangelical strings attached which hinders its effectiveness as aid and sends mixed signals about who Jesus really was.

So as charitable organizations, most churches are highly inefficient.  Ironically, this is the argument many conservatives make against government programs and the liberal approach.

So everything you say is true, but not the whole story and I believe liberals have some very valid points.  And of course Bonoís message to the church was exactly this...the church should be leading the way in helping with extreme poverty and AIDS, which in many cases, it wasnít.  If the church was doing its job, the issue about liberal vs conservative approach would be moot.


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I never said that liberals don't have valid points. In fact I included some of those valid points in my post. And you have raised other valid points, such as that the church wasn't always leading the way -- well, on AIDS it wasn't, for the most part, and Bono actually helped change that.

What I was getting at was that the tendency by liberals to denigrate the compassion of conservatives, or to equate Christian teaching with a particular brand of politics, is not valid. For my part, I want my government to help people in need, but I also very much understand why many are leery of that approach. My own family come from a country where the idea that government would take care of redistribution of wealth led to a small ruling class controlling all the wealth and power and everybody else having nothing, neither material wealth nor rights.  And you shouldn't have to have that sort of thing in your own background to understand how often it has happened.

You say that "conservative generosity" consists of tithing to the church. I'm not sure that's accurate, since I believe I've seen stats showing that conservatives give more to secular charity as well as religious charity. But I don't have the data in front of me so I'm not sure.

I donít really think we are disagreeing on any principles but maybe arguing a bit on degrees of truth.  For example, I agree that you canít or shouldnít equate a particular Christian teaching with a political point of view.  But people do, and the reason they do is that some Christians say and do things that support that linkage.  Especially in more recent times.

I donít have any data either.  I would be curious what it would suggest.  To make the point clearly...if taxes were reduced by 3% of income, how many self-described Christians who are currently tithing would continue tithing and then give the 3%  tax savings to a pure aid/charity organization?  This was the direction the Bush administration was headed with its Faith-based programs and my recollection is that it didnít work very well.

No doubt we have many lessons of what happens when a corrupt government makes promises to the poor to gain power.  I am not advocating for a Chavez-like socialism or any kind of socialism for that matter.  Iím just saying that if the conservative philosophy you describe was effective it would have already solved the problem.  It is obvious to me that humans are not inherently generous enough to bring about the degree of social balancing that needs to take place in order to prevent wide-scale civil unrest that would make us all poorer.


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