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U2 => General U2 Discussion => Topic started by: Groovy on March 12, 2018, 02:06:23 AM

Title: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Groovy on March 12, 2018, 02:06:23 AM


I have been a U2 fan since 1984. I think I will always be a U2 fan. Like most people on this forum I have defended U2 and Bono against the “haters” for many years.

I will continue to do so. I think their music is great…although the last 20 years have been uneven musically, I still got loads out of their recent couple of albums.

My politics are left of centre, so mostly have aligned with U2’s.

Even when the news came out a decade ago that part of their tax affairs have been moved to Holland, I kind of understood. I think they left themselves open to charges of hypocrisy (especially Bono), but nothing they did was illegal. Most of their publishing earnings were outside of Ireland, so I could understand the business decision.

The latest story though of the bullying at the One offices has shocked me. Not the bullying etc, although unfortunately this happens in many organisations.

The claim that the One organisation didn’t pay any local tax in South Africa on the salaries they paid to their staff there is just shocking.

This is an organisation that has made tax fairness with regards to western countries in developing countries one of their core issues.

Many aid organisations in the west do this type of corruption. They give money in aid, but then never pay local taxes and get deductions in their home countries.

Now I don’t think Bono can deny knowing about this. It is his organisation. He’s probably the main person on the board.

While Europe is recovering from a massive cold storm recently, I thought to change the old saying...

Hypocrisy is a dish best served cold.



“Moyo, who left to become chief of staff to Akinwumi Adesina, the president of the African Development Bank, strongly denies all these allegations. However, she did confirm to the Daily Mail that the ONE Campaign did not pay tax on employees’ salaries in South Africa, saying that this decision was taken in Washington DC.”

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-03-12-bonos-charity-admits-to-toxic-bullying-at-south-africa-office

Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: summerholly on March 12, 2018, 06:10:00 AM
I would like to base my opinions on a lot more detailed information than that.   Having been born in Africa and living in South Africa for many years with many friends living there, it is a complex country with a lot of issues stemming from its history. I am not sure it would qualify as a real developing country compared to other African countries given the sophisticated agriculture and mining industries it currently has.  It also has good Universities. Hard to comment on the tax situation without knowing the full details of how it is structured.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: miryclay on March 12, 2018, 06:11:10 AM
I would consider this to be a problem of any International organization who don't share similar values.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: paddyattitude on March 12, 2018, 08:03:26 AM
this is not HIS organisation...
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: dwaltman on March 12, 2018, 08:45:12 AM
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this is not HIS organisation...

Being the co-founder kinda makes it HIS organization.

https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/ (https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/)
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: summerholly on March 12, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
I don't know, I find it all pretty tiresome.  Poor guy would be much more popular if he just lived the rockstar lifestyle and simply didn't bother about trying to do any good in the world at all. He could use tax havens, take drugs, have affairs and know one would probably give a sh**. 

People endlessly focus on reporting anything negative that involves Bono and don't actually seem remotely interested in finding out about the positive stories that may be happening.  People simply don't care about that, they just want to jump on the dirt.

I did see a comment from a person in Africa and they said that the results of the AIDS campaigning had made a difference where they were but you never hear that stuff. 
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: paddyattitude on March 12, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
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this is not HIS organisation...

Being the co-founder kinda makes it HIS organization.

https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/ (https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/)

He is rather the spokesperson
many people and organisations were involved in the creation, such as the Gates.
so why don't we blame Bill Gates for all of these?

the wikipedia page says: ONE was founded in 2004 by a coalition of 11 non-profit humanitarian and advocacy organizations, including DATA, CARE, World Vision, Oxfam America, and Bread for the World, with funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. In 2007, ONE announced that it would be merging with DATA.

11!!!

how does it make it his?!
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: summerholly on March 12, 2018, 10:00:51 AM
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this is not HIS organisation...

Being the co-founder kinda makes it HIS organization.

https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/ (https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/)

He is rather the spokesperson
many people and organisations were involved in the creation, such as the Gates.
so why don't we blame Bill Gates for all of these?

the wikipedia page says: ONE was founded in 2004 by a coalition of 11 non-profit humanitarian and advocacy organizations, including DATA, CARE, World Vision, Oxfam America, and Bread for the World, with funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. In 2007, ONE announced that it would be merging with DATA.

11!!!

how does it make it his?!

That would make reporting on it as boring as batshit.  A good dose of Bono bashing is way more newsworthy, headline grabbing and scandalous. 
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: jgrooms on March 12, 2018, 10:18:07 AM
I seriously doubt Bono is involved in the day to say operations of One. 
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Luzita on March 12, 2018, 12:33:12 PM
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I have been a U2 fan since 1984. I think I will always be a U2 fan. Like most people on this forum I have defended U2 and Bono against the “haters” for many years.

I will continue to do so. I think their music is great…although the last 20 years have been uneven musically, I still got loads out of their recent couple of albums.

My politics are left of centre, so mostly have aligned with U2’s.

Even when the news came out a decade ago that part of their tax affairs have been moved to Holland, I kind of understood. I think they left themselves open to charges of hypocrisy (especially Bono), but nothing they did was illegal. Most of their publishing earnings were outside of Ireland, so I could understand the business decision.

The latest story though of the bullying at the One offices has shocked me. Not the bullying etc, although unfortunately this happens in many organisations.

The claim that the One organisation didn’t pay any local tax in South Africa on the salaries they paid to their staff there is just shocking.

This is an organisation that has made tax fairness with regards to western countries in developing countries one of their core issues.

Many aid organisations in the west do this type of corruption. They give money in aid, but then never pay local taxes and get deductions in their home countries.

Now I don’t think Bono can deny knowing about this. It is his organisation. He’s probably the main person on the board.

While Europe is recovering from a massive cold storm recently, I thought to change the old saying...

Hypocrisy is a dish best served cold.



“Moyo, who left to become chief of staff to Akinwumi Adesina, the president of the African Development Bank, strongly denies all these allegations. However, she did confirm to the Daily Mail that the ONE Campaign did not pay tax on employees’ salaries in South Africa, saying that this decision was taken in Washington DC.”

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-03-12-bonos-charity-admits-to-toxic-bullying-at-south-africa-office

I have a couple of big problems with this news story.

The first is that -- as noted in the quote above -- the person who "confirmed" the tax arrangement and passed the buck for it to the head office is the same person who is alleged to have committed all the abuse. Don't think I would take her word on anything.

The second problem is that there is nothing to indicate whether these tax arrangements (if they really occurred as reported) are legal or illegal. If they are illegal, that is a problem and the organization needs to investigate. If they are legal, then this is a non-issue.

I realize it's very trendy in some circles to treat perfectly legal low-tax investments or arrangements as equivalent to laundering money for a drug cartel, but that's not just absurd, it's quite disturbing. Of course everyone should pay their taxes, but when certain people with big media megaphones treat folks like Bono as criminals for abiding by the tax laws of democratic nations, what that really means is those people don't believe democratic nations should have the right to decide their own tax policy. They believe *they* should have the power to decide tax policy for all nations.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: dwaltman on March 12, 2018, 01:02:50 PM
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this is not HIS organisation...

Being the co-founder kinda makes it HIS organization.

https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/ (https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/)

He is rather the spokesperson
many people and organisations were involved in the creation, such as the Gates.
so why don't we blame Bill Gates for all of these?

the wikipedia page says: ONE was founded in 2004 by a coalition of 11 non-profit humanitarian and advocacy organizations, including DATA, CARE, World Vision, Oxfam America, and Bread for the World, with funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. In 2007, ONE announced that it would be merging with DATA.

11!!!

how does it make it his?!

Because he was one of 3 co-founders, along with Bobby Schriver and Jamie Drummond.  He is the face of the organization, he promotes the organization at every concert.  I believe that without Bono, ONE would not exist.  He worked to bring the coalition together and to get funding from Gates.

I'm not trying to suggest he is somehow responsible for what happened in the South African offices, however, who thought it was necessary to issue a statement/apology?  Bono.  If it wasn't his organization, why would he feel the need to do so.

I agree with others in this thread that Bono's good works do not get enough attention and he is removed from the day to day operations of ONE and RED campaigns but these organizations exist because of the work of Bono.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Groovy on March 13, 2018, 01:09:26 AM
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“Moyo, who left to become chief of staff to Akinwumi Adesina, the president of the African Development Bank, strongly denies all these allegations. However, she did confirm to the Daily Mail that the ONE Campaign did not pay tax on employees’ salaries in South Africa, saying that this decision was taken in Washington DC.”

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-03-12-bonos-charity-admits-to-toxic-bullying-at-south-africa-office

I have a couple of big problems with this news story.

The first is that -- as noted in the quote above -- the person who "confirmed" the tax arrangement and passed the buck for it to the head office is the same person who is alleged to have committed all the abuse. Don't think I would take her word on anything.

The second problem is that there is nothing to indicate whether these tax arrangements (if they really occurred as reported) are legal or illegal. If they are illegal, that is a problem and the organization needs to investigate. If they are legal, then this is a non-issue.

I realize it's very trendy in some circles to treat perfectly legal low-tax investments or arrangements as equivalent to laundering money for a drug cartel, but that's not just absurd, it's quite disturbing. Of course everyone should pay their taxes, but when certain people with big media megaphones treat folks like Bono as criminals for abiding by the tax laws of democratic nations, what that really means is those people don't believe democratic nations should have the right to decide their own tax policy. They believe *they* should have the power to decide tax policy for all nations.

You seem to have misread my point. This isn't about the legality. Simply put the One organisation has one of its core issues tax fairness in the developing world. Read up on it.

Now if they campaign on this and then do exactly what they campaign against, they are hypocrites. This doesn't mean Bono and his organisations aren't doing good work etc.

But the next time you campaign on something, your credibility will have been damaged.

This is not rocket science.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: TheRealEdge on March 13, 2018, 03:55:28 AM
I think a lot of fans have put Bono on such a high pedestal that they forget that he is just a man - and a man who isn't perfect.

There's no 'pure' man on this planet - save 'maybe' some religious types (but I doubt that too) - and 'we' (men) have to look at ourselves and see how 'perfect' we are.

I like Bono, but I don't know the man - I only know of what I read and see in the media both U2 and non-U2 generated.

Just my thoughts on the B-man.



Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: summerholly on March 13, 2018, 04:36:10 AM
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I think a lot of fans have put Bono on such a high pedestal that they forget that he is just a man - and a man who isn't perfect.

There's no 'pure' man on this planet - save 'maybe' some religious types (but I doubt that too) - and 'we' (men) have to look at ourselves and see how 'perfect' we are.

I like Bono, but I don't know the man - I only know of what I read and see in the media both U2 and non-U2 generated.

Just my thoughts on the B-man.

Nobody is perfect.  I am not particularly attached to Bono either but there does seem to be a desire to find something bad on him whenever possible.  Most of it to means seems like a little bit of fact and a lot of trying very hard to make as big a mountain out of it as possible to make Bono look as bad a possible, while other people doing the same of worse are give a free pass.  Some of it seems highly illogical to me, everyone seems to be an expert on bugger all real fact and detailed information.    I guess I am a facts person.  I get tired of the media spin and really if people are going to pass judgement on if Bono is doing right, wrong or somewhere in between they need all the details and the facts which we are unlikely ever to know.

There seem to be a complex web of people, countries and business structures involved and yet people try and simplify down to whatever will get people all hot and bothered and blame it all on Bono lol.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: paddyattitude on March 13, 2018, 09:27:30 AM
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this is not HIS organisation...

Being the co-founder kinda makes it HIS organization.

https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/ (https://www.one.org/us/person/bono/)

He is rather the spokesperson
many people and organisations were involved in the creation, such as the Gates.
so why don't we blame Bill Gates for all of these?

the wikipedia page says: ONE was founded in 2004 by a coalition of 11 non-profit humanitarian and advocacy organizations, including DATA, CARE, World Vision, Oxfam America, and Bread for the World, with funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. In 2007, ONE announced that it would be merging with DATA.

11!!!

how does it make it his?!

Because he was one of 3 co-founders, along with Bobby Schriver and Jamie Drummond.  He is the face of the organization, he promotes the organization at every concert.  I believe that without Bono, ONE would not exist.  He worked to bring the coalition together and to get funding from Gates.

I'm not trying to suggest he is somehow responsible for what happened in the South African offices, however, who thought it was necessary to issue a statement/apology?  Bono.  If it wasn't his organization, why would he feel the need to do so.

I agree with others in this thread that Bono's good works do not get enough attention and he is removed from the day to day operations of ONE and RED campaigns but these organizations exist because of the work of Bono.

11 organisations don't make 3 co-founders...
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Luzita on March 13, 2018, 03:59:00 PM
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“Moyo, who left to become chief of staff to Akinwumi Adesina, the president of the African Development Bank, strongly denies all these allegations. However, she did confirm to the Daily Mail that the ONE Campaign did not pay tax on employees’ salaries in South Africa, saying that this decision was taken in Washington DC.”

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-03-12-bonos-charity-admits-to-toxic-bullying-at-south-africa-office

I have a couple of big problems with this news story.

The first is that -- as noted in the quote above -- the person who "confirmed" the tax arrangement and passed the buck for it to the head office is the same person who is alleged to have committed all the abuse. Don't think I would take her word on anything.

The second problem is that there is nothing to indicate whether these tax arrangements (if they really occurred as reported) are legal or illegal. If they are illegal, that is a problem and the organization needs to investigate. If they are legal, then this is a non-issue.

I realize it's very trendy in some circles to treat perfectly legal low-tax investments or arrangements as equivalent to laundering money for a drug cartel, but that's not just absurd, it's quite disturbing. Of course everyone should pay their taxes, but when certain people with big media megaphones treat folks like Bono as criminals for abiding by the tax laws of democratic nations, what that really means is those people don't believe democratic nations should have the right to decide their own tax policy. They believe *they* should have the power to decide tax policy for all nations.

You seem to have misread my point. This isn't about the legality. Simply put the One organisation has one of its core issues tax fairness in the developing world. Read up on it.

Now if they campaign on this and then do exactly what they campaign against, they are hypocrites. This doesn't mean Bono and his organisations aren't doing good work etc.

But the next time you campaign on something, your credibility will have been damaged.

This is not rocket science.

I described a couple of problems with the article you linked and I stand by my statements on both counts. To be sure, when I talked about legal vs. illegal being the important thing regarding tax arrangements, I was expressing my opinion. I accept your point that if the ONE campaign has emphasized "tax fairness" as you define it (with legality beside the point), and then violated those principles itself, that is damaging to their credibility.

So I took your advice and read up on it. I looked at the ONE website and did a little googling about ONE and tax fairness. I wasn't able to find anything regarding the kind of "tax fairness" you're talking about, though I did find information about ONE's efforts for transparency and against corruption in the developing world. They published a report called "Trillion Dollar Scandal," summarized as follows:

"At least a trillion dollars a year is siphoned out of developing countries through corrupt activity involving shady deals for natural resources, the use of phantom firms, money laundering and illegal tax evasion, according to new research by The ONE Campaign."

Notice this specifically says *illegal* tax evasion.

To be sure, my bit of research is a very high-level review of the subject, but if the kind of "tax fairness" you're talking about were strongly associated with the ONE campaign, it should have turned up in a high-level review.

Of course, if it turns out there was illegal tax evasion going on with regard to the South African office, the hypocrisy makes that even worse than it would be otherwise.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 13, 2018, 09:54:27 PM
Oh he's done worse than that in the name of charity over the years.

https://youtu.be/HZjB9AZXSoI (https://youtu.be/HZjB9AZXSoI)
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Luzita on March 13, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
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Oh he's done worse than that in the name of charity over the years.

https://youtu.be/HZjB9AZXSoI (https://youtu.be/HZjB9AZXSoI)

Wow, never saw that before. Wish I’d stayed ignorant.


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Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: jackde65 on April 06, 2018, 08:34:30 AM
I love watching people fight for Bono no matter what he does wrong. I love Bono. This story does give me creepy feelings though. These are the things he pays his lawyers to keep hidden from public view. I can get over it. There isn't one human being without at least a touch of hypocrisy. The rich have tax loopholes and cheats that no ordinary man has. Bono just happens to be rich. He's just trying to hold onto all of the money he can. Does it make him look sh*tty? Yes it does, but ahhh whatever.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: summerholly on April 06, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
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I love watching people fight for Bono no matter what he does wrong. I love Bono. This story does give me creepy feelings though. These are the things he pays his lawyers to keep hidden from public view. I can get over it. There isn't one human being without at least a touch of hypocrisy. The rich have tax loopholes and cheats that no ordinary man has. Bono just happens to be rich. He's just trying to hold onto all of the money he can. Does it make him look sh*tty? Yes it does, but ahhh whatever.

I find it hard to make any real judgement without knowing the true facts.  There is just so much speculation, innuendo and sensationalism that seems to surround anything that Bono does.  Really I find it boring when there are probably real corporate criminals out there getting away with murder and no one bats an eyelid.  Bono has come from nothing, worked really hard and probably tried to do much more than I ever will for the world so I am not going to pass judgement.  No man is perfect and some of the sh** and bullying I see ordinary people doing to their fellow man on a daily basis defies belief at times.  People need to get over this whole Bono thing and find something more productive to do.
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: SwimmingSorrows on April 09, 2018, 06:30:46 PM
Though he might overstep the line, you just cannot get angry in the same way. . . .
Title: Re: Bono has overstepped the line
Post by: Luzita on April 09, 2018, 07:39:00 PM
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I love watching people fight for Bono no matter what he does wrong. I love Bono. This story does give me creepy feelings though. These are the things he pays his lawyers to keep hidden from public view. I can get over it. There isn't one human being without at least a touch of hypocrisy. The rich have tax loopholes and cheats that no ordinary man has. Bono just happens to be rich. He's just trying to hold onto all of the money he can. Does it make him look sh*tty? Yes it does, but ahhh whatever.
I’m having trouble understanding how your comment connects with this story, which has absolutely nothing to do with Bono hanging on to money. It has nothing to do with any taxes that he owes. The tax issue (which isn’t the main issue) is about the ONE organization formerly paying taxes in a different country for its South Africa employees. ONE is a nonprofit that Bono helped to found. He gets no money from the organization.


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