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31
General U2 Discussion / Re: Songs Of Experience sales in the United States
« Last post by wons on September 24, 2018, 06:14:21 PM »
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People are still pi**ed that they got a free album on their iPhones four years ago.

I don't think U2's reputation could survive ANY SORT of forced album purchase.

And, what, are you going to for a family of four to shell out an extra $48 for four albums they don't want? Even hard core fans will be pi**ed.

Besides, people can already get the album for free with tickets - they just have to click a link and choose a download or CD. And they count toward the album sales. So they are already tapping the concert ticket market to the fullest extent.
Yes, trying to force people to buy an album is really not a good idea.

Of course anyone who buys a ticket has paid for an album, itís figured into the cost. So U2 could conceivably say up front, every ticket buyer gets an album, and send one automatically without waiting for people to request it. But that would be meaningless. If people canít be bothered to order an album theyíve already paid for they must just not want one.

Or maybe some people didnít understand they had to order it, or forgot? I had to remind my friend about ordering her album before the offer expired. I donít know. I think we have to accept that it is what it is.


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I think most people did not notice, or forgot the album option on the latest tour. Automatically getting the album with a ticket purchase would be a better idea. The fan would have the option of digital or physical and if they did not choose then they would just get the digital copy on their U2.com account or through E-mail.

But hey, its just an idea. I don't know of any other way of boosting album purchases at this point with more than 80% of the population no longer purchasing music and just streaming. Anyone got a better idea for boosting album sales, lets hear it.

Quit worrying about album sales and awards.  Music is not a competition and even if it was album sales is no longer a way to keep score.  It is becoming obsolete.  You may as well be a fan of Beethoven in 1800 complaining that heís not selling any recordings.  Youíre worrying about a statistic that isnít even relevant any more, trying to come up with a way to boost a score that no longer has any meaning.

People are less and less interested in owning and ďprogrammingĒ their own music.  They would rather listen to a curated playlist.  You can mourn the fact that things arenít the way they used to be.  Iím sure there were people who mourned that horses became relatively scarce when the car came along.  But most people were just glad there were no longer manure puddles in the street every time it rained.

The truth is you canít even give recorded music away to many (especially younger) people today.  People used to gift my kids itunes cards and they would just sit in a drawer unused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whether its album sales or some other format to determine popularity and earn the band money, its important to U2 and most of their fans enjoy seeing U2 succeed at it. U2 is a music band but its also a businesss. Success in the business is important to the band for many reasons.


Album sales for U2 are relevant because that is how most of their music is listened to. U2's streaming numbers are tiny compared to their album sales numbers both physical and digital.

Please, spare us your crazy comparisons with horses and cars. You really think listening to an album on a physical CD or in a digital format is the equivalent of riding a horse into town as opposed to going in a CAR?! Are you NUTS? CD or digital album = horse while youtube/spotify = a car?  There is virtually no difference in sound quality. The only difference is that in one case the artist gets payed directly and while in the other a service is payed and then the artist might make some money from the service. You enjoy youtube/spotify because its essentially free music or cost very little money. Your philosophy is screw the artist! Who cares if they make any money for their work. It fits with your lazy ass lets sit down at concerts perspective as well.

Finally, I put I lot of time in collecting the information found in this thread. If your not interested in it or don't like it, why the hell do you bother reading and posting in it?

I spend around $500/year on musicians, most of which goes directly into their pockets, not siphoned off to a major label.  I think I do my fair share as a patron of the arts.  I post because Iím very interested in the evolution of the business model for the performing arts.  You and I just disagree on whether its good or bad for most artists.

In thinking the car/buggy analogy is wrong you are making the same mistake the industry initially made.  They thought the point of Napster was theft.  There is a huge advantage to streaming over digital downloads or CDs.  Its called convenience.  You donít understand that because its not relevant to you.  Streaming is continuing to grow and eventually enough people will be paying the monthly fee that the services and artists will both make money.  Or it wonít grow and in that case it will die.  The jury is still out.

Again, most people never bought more than one CD per month.  The same revenue into the system as streaming.  Its not that high of a hurdle.

Most young people pay for it.  Its the older people who think its the enemy that are undermining its success.

In the United States, the music industry revenues were 21.5 BILLION in 1999, adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). By 2015, revenues were 6.9 BILLION dollars adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). That's means by 2015 the music industry was making about 70% less than it was in 1999.

By comparison, United States GDP and total wealth grew 40% to 50% over that time period. That means if the music industry had kept pace with normal economic trends its revenues by 2015 should be in the $30 BILLION dollar range. Instead they are at $6.9 BILLION. That is a total DISASTER.


So what happened? Did people stop listening to music? Nope. Are less people listening to music? Nope. In fact, more people are listening to music today than ever before thanks to population growth. What happened is that the vast majority of people STOPPED paying for music or at the very least started paying only a fraction of what they used to pay.

A 70% drop in businness, likely 80% if you look at what the music business should be earning now given average economic growth, is a disaster. People simply won't pay for what they can get for free. When people don't pay a business for the service it provides, it suffers enormous losses.

Wonderful for the consumer, terrible for the business. How would you like it if 80% of your wealth and earnings were wiped out?

Streaming subscriptions are now where near to replacing what has been lost. Your idea's about what people used to buy are grossly inaccurate as the numbers show.

People are definitely listening to music less.  When I was a teenager we had three TV channels and no video game.  Music was our thing.  Today teens pay very little attention to music.  They play video games and watch netflix.  Visual and interactive is more compelling than aural and there is an unlimited supply of it.  In my high school years we spent our money on stereos and cars.  How do you think sales of Crager wheels and Hooker headers compares to the past?  Kids donít care about cars anymore either.  When they do listen to music they are much more casual about it, content to hear a free programmed playlist (akin to radio) instead of paying for the privilege to hear what they want to hear on demand.  Its the kids you need to watch because it has always been the youth that bought music.



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Ok, so if you graduated in High school in 1982, that year music industry revenues were $9.2 BILLION adjusted into 2017 dollars. 17 years later, that figure had more than doubled to $21.5 BILLION. Long before 1999, you had cable TV, internet, Personal Computers etc. Yet, the number of music listeners had grown enormously given the massive increase in revenues. The music industry has it entered the new century was at its peak. Far more people were engaged in listening to music in the year 2000 than in 1980, 1970, or 1960.


             The point here is that what you are comparing is not 2018 with 1969, but 2018 with the year 2000. You have video games and this other media in the year 2000 when the music industry is at its peak. What happened is that technology arrived that allowed more and more people to obtain music for FREE! Again, why pay for something when you can have it for free? Technology has allowed the consumer to get what music they want without paying for it.


             Notice how the concert industry has survived while the recording music industry has essentially been destroyed. Why? You may be able to obtain recorded music for free thanks to technology, but you can't get into a stadium or arena and see a live concert in person without buying a ticket. This is all about what people can get away with. Its easy to steal recorded music, there are so many different ways you can do it. But your chances of getting into a concert without buying a ticket have not changed at all. That perfectly explains why one business has sunk dramatically and the other has continued to grow.

32
News and Rumors / Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Last post by ShankAsu on September 24, 2018, 05:44:24 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


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When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

If you donít see Bono criticizing himself then you arenít hearing or reading his interviews.  He is constantly mocking his rockstar status and saying things like he is a poor advertisement for God.

You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.


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I'll concede partially on the self-criticism (it's kind of a weak argument, but more tongue in cheek), but i do know when someone is putting people down, and that's what i've taken away from Bono talking about Christians in the US.  I personally think its because they don't see eye to eye on many things outside of religion and i'm not saying who is right, but i do feel like Bono can be condescending.
33
General U2 Discussion / Re: What singles would you have picked for the last 3 albums?
« Last post by Sonofabono on September 24, 2018, 05:32:39 PM »
Good topic!

NLOTH: Breathe, Stand Up Comedy, Magnificent
SOI: California acoustic, Troubles, Iris
SOE: Red Flag Day, Summer of Love, Love is Bigger

If there's any logic here it's that radio songs need to be big enough to grab you but also be different enough from all of the other big songs currently on the radio so that they don't just sound like everything else out there. Some songs (Breathe, SUC) fit into sort of the alternative, hard-hitting, Green Day-ish vibe while still being distinctly U2. Some songs (Iris, Summer of Love, Magnificnet) fit into the new dance-ish vibe while still being distinctly U2. California acoustic would have made a good poppy radio palette cleanser. The rest are too good or too U2ish yet fresh sounding to not be considered as singles (Red Flag Day, Love is Bigger, Troubles).
34
News and Rumors / Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Last post by Tortuga on September 24, 2018, 05:12:38 PM »
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   I think it's great he's finally met Pope Francis--two great spiritual leaders.  This pope has great humility and personal warmth.  My hope is that he will help lead the church into a  brighter future.
Bono is NOT a spiritual leader.  Even for being a Christian, he sure does like to make fun of them a lot.

Being a Christian does not mean you donít criticize yourself or your brothers when you or they are wrong.  Quite the opposite.  And making fun is a good way to stay humble, one of the key traits of authentic Christianity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When has Bono ever criticized himself?  And I don't see Bono staying humble when he puts down other Christians- i see the opposite in fact, almost like he thinks he's a better Christian.  I've read many interviews where he puts down the Christians in America seemingly because they don't have the same politics as he does.

If you donít see Bono criticizing himself then you arenít hearing or reading his interviews.  He is constantly mocking his rockstar status and saying things like he is a poor advertisement for God.

You can say heís only criticizing Christians who donít share his politics only if you consider scripture like Matthew 25 to be a political statement rather than a message from Christ.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
35
General U2 Discussion / Re: Songs Of Experience sales in the United States
« Last post by Tortuga on September 24, 2018, 05:03:15 PM »
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People are still pi**ed that they got a free album on their iPhones four years ago.

I don't think U2's reputation could survive ANY SORT of forced album purchase.

And, what, are you going to for a family of four to shell out an extra $48 for four albums they don't want? Even hard core fans will be pi**ed.

Besides, people can already get the album for free with tickets - they just have to click a link and choose a download or CD. And they count toward the album sales. So they are already tapping the concert ticket market to the fullest extent.
Yes, trying to force people to buy an album is really not a good idea.

Of course anyone who buys a ticket has paid for an album, itís figured into the cost. So U2 could conceivably say up front, every ticket buyer gets an album, and send one automatically without waiting for people to request it. But that would be meaningless. If people canít be bothered to order an album theyíve already paid for they must just not want one.

Or maybe some people didnít understand they had to order it, or forgot? I had to remind my friend about ordering her album before the offer expired. I donít know. I think we have to accept that it is what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think most people did not notice, or forgot the album option on the latest tour. Automatically getting the album with a ticket purchase would be a better idea. The fan would have the option of digital or physical and if they did not choose then they would just get the digital copy on their U2.com account or through E-mail.

But hey, its just an idea. I don't know of any other way of boosting album purchases at this point with more than 80% of the population no longer purchasing music and just streaming. Anyone got a better idea for boosting album sales, lets hear it.

Quit worrying about album sales and awards.  Music is not a competition and even if it was album sales is no longer a way to keep score.  It is becoming obsolete.  You may as well be a fan of Beethoven in 1800 complaining that heís not selling any recordings.  Youíre worrying about a statistic that isnít even relevant any more, trying to come up with a way to boost a score that no longer has any meaning.

People are less and less interested in owning and ďprogrammingĒ their own music.  They would rather listen to a curated playlist.  You can mourn the fact that things arenít the way they used to be.  Iím sure there were people who mourned that horses became relatively scarce when the car came along.  But most people were just glad there were no longer manure puddles in the street every time it rained.

The truth is you canít even give recorded music away to many (especially younger) people today.  People used to gift my kids itunes cards and they would just sit in a drawer unused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whether its album sales or some other format to determine popularity and earn the band money, its important to U2 and most of their fans enjoy seeing U2 succeed at it. U2 is a music band but its also a businesss. Success in the business is important to the band for many reasons.


Album sales for U2 are relevant because that is how most of their music is listened to. U2's streaming numbers are tiny compared to their album sales numbers both physical and digital.

Please, spare us your crazy comparisons with horses and cars. You really think listening to an album on a physical CD or in a digital format is the equivalent of riding a horse into town as opposed to going in a CAR?! Are you NUTS? CD or digital album = horse while youtube/spotify = a car?  There is virtually no difference in sound quality. The only difference is that in one case the artist gets payed directly and while in the other a service is payed and then the artist might make some money from the service. You enjoy youtube/spotify because its essentially free music or cost very little money. Your philosophy is screw the artist! Who cares if they make any money for their work. It fits with your lazy ass lets sit down at concerts perspective as well.

Finally, I put I lot of time in collecting the information found in this thread. If your not interested in it or don't like it, why the hell do you bother reading and posting in it?

I spend around $500/year on musicians, most of which goes directly into their pockets, not siphoned off to a major label.  I think I do my fair share as a patron of the arts.  I post because Iím very interested in the evolution of the business model for the performing arts.  You and I just disagree on whether its good or bad for most artists.

In thinking the car/buggy analogy is wrong you are making the same mistake the industry initially made.  They thought the point of Napster was theft.  There is a huge advantage to streaming over digital downloads or CDs.  Its called convenience.  You donít understand that because its not relevant to you.  Streaming is continuing to grow and eventually enough people will be paying the monthly fee that the services and artists will both make money.  Or it wonít grow and in that case it will die.  The jury is still out.

Again, most people never bought more than one CD per month.  The same revenue into the system as streaming.  Its not that high of a hurdle.

Most young people pay for it.  Its the older people who think its the enemy that are undermining its success.

In the United States, the music industry revenues were 21.5 BILLION in 1999, adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). By 2015, revenues were 6.9 BILLION dollars adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). That's means by 2015 the music industry was making about 70% less than it was in 1999.

By comparison, United States GDP and total wealth grew 40% to 50% over that time period. That means if the music industry had kept pace with normal economic trends its revenues by 2015 should be in the $30 BILLION dollar range. Instead they are at $6.9 BILLION. That is a total DISASTER.


So what happened? Did people stop listening to music? Nope. Are less people listening to music? Nope. In fact, more people are listening to music today than ever before thanks to population growth. What happened is that the vast majority of people STOPPED paying for music or at the very least started paying only a fraction of what they used to pay.

A 70% drop in businness, likely 80% if you look at what the music business should be earning now given average economic growth, is a disaster. People simply won't pay for what they can get for free. When people don't pay a business for the service it provides, it suffers enormous losses.

Wonderful for the consumer, terrible for the business. How would you like it if 80% of your wealth and earnings were wiped out?

Streaming subscriptions are now where near to replacing what has been lost. Your idea's about what people used to buy are grossly inaccurate as the numbers show.

People are definitely listening to music less.  When I was a teenager we had three TV channels and no video game.  Music was our thing.  Today teens pay very little attention to music.  They play video games and watch netflix.  Visual and interactive is more compelling than aural and there is an unlimited supply of it.  In my high school years we spent our money on stereos and cars.  How do you think sales of Crager wheels and Hooker headers compares to the past?  Kids donít care about cars anymore either.  When they do listen to music they are much more casual about it, content to hear a free programmed playlist (akin to radio) instead of paying for the privilege to hear what they want to hear on demand.  Its the kids you need to watch because it has always been the youth that bought music.



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36
Tours / Re: If there is an Achtung Baby Anniversary Tour, then...
« Last post by Sonofabono on September 24, 2018, 05:02:25 PM »
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The next tour won't be until Songs of Ascent or whatever the next album is called, but a Zoo Two tour would be very cool.  In a dream world, Songs of Ascent would fit the vibe of Zoo TV and Pop tours, so a Zoo Two type tour would happen... Not likely, but a boy can dream.  I do believe they have one more Zoo TV / U2 360 size stadium tour in them.

And the award goes to the guy who came up with ZOO-2. (If someone else came up with this before, I'm sorry. Too lazy to read the whole thread.)
37
News and Rumors / Re: Bono meets Pope Francis
« Last post by laoghaire on September 24, 2018, 03:02:09 PM »
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Bono is definitely a spiritual leader to me.  Enough said.
I don't deify musicians.

You deify spiritual leaders? That's odd.
?
Never said that either, but i don't think many people do- such as the Pope or the Dali Lama.  Just found it odd and off-putting that Bono is considered a spiritual leader on the level of the Pope.

How do the two statements connect, then?

Someone says she considers Bono a spiritual leader.
Your response is you don't deify musicians.

The only way those statements could be logically connected is if you deify spiritual leaders.

It's also odd that your next argument is that you can't see Bono as a spiritual leader because, I guess, spiritual leaders are the Pope and the Dalai Lama. Are not the local pastors and deacons and so on spiritual leaders? Or, I guess that takes us back to your original position that spiritual leaders are deified, which suggests that the Pope and Dalai Lama are deified, and probably also among the only spritual leaders in the world.

It's cool you don't see Bono as a spiritual leader, but your reasoning seems odd to me.
38
The Music and Lyrics / Re: Rank U2's albums
« Last post by World71R on September 24, 2018, 01:53:41 PM »
Achtung Baby
The Joshua Tree
The Unforgettable Fire
War
Zooropa
Songs of Experience
Pop
All That You Can't Leave Behind
Songs of Innocence
Boy
No Line on the Horizon
How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb
Rattle & Hum
October
39
General U2 Discussion / Re: Songs Of Experience sales in the United States
« Last post by wons on September 24, 2018, 01:40:04 PM »
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People are still pi**ed that they got a free album on their iPhones four years ago.

I don't think U2's reputation could survive ANY SORT of forced album purchase.

And, what, are you going to for a family of four to shell out an extra $48 for four albums they don't want? Even hard core fans will be pi**ed.

Besides, people can already get the album for free with tickets - they just have to click a link and choose a download or CD. And they count toward the album sales. So they are already tapping the concert ticket market to the fullest extent.
Yes, trying to force people to buy an album is really not a good idea.

Of course anyone who buys a ticket has paid for an album, itís figured into the cost. So U2 could conceivably say up front, every ticket buyer gets an album, and send one automatically without waiting for people to request it. But that would be meaningless. If people canít be bothered to order an album theyíve already paid for they must just not want one.

Or maybe some people didnít understand they had to order it, or forgot? I had to remind my friend about ordering her album before the offer expired. I donít know. I think we have to accept that it is what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think most people did not notice, or forgot the album option on the latest tour. Automatically getting the album with a ticket purchase would be a better idea. The fan would have the option of digital or physical and if they did not choose then they would just get the digital copy on their U2.com account or through E-mail.

But hey, its just an idea. I don't know of any other way of boosting album purchases at this point with more than 80% of the population no longer purchasing music and just streaming. Anyone got a better idea for boosting album sales, lets hear it.

Quit worrying about album sales and awards.  Music is not a competition and even if it was album sales is no longer a way to keep score.  It is becoming obsolete.  You may as well be a fan of Beethoven in 1800 complaining that heís not selling any recordings.  Youíre worrying about a statistic that isnít even relevant any more, trying to come up with a way to boost a score that no longer has any meaning.

People are less and less interested in owning and ďprogrammingĒ their own music.  They would rather listen to a curated playlist.  You can mourn the fact that things arenít the way they used to be.  Iím sure there were people who mourned that horses became relatively scarce when the car came along.  But most people were just glad there were no longer manure puddles in the street every time it rained.

The truth is you canít even give recorded music away to many (especially younger) people today.  People used to gift my kids itunes cards and they would just sit in a drawer unused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whether its album sales or some other format to determine popularity and earn the band money, its important to U2 and most of their fans enjoy seeing U2 succeed at it. U2 is a music band but its also a businesss. Success in the business is important to the band for many reasons.


Album sales for U2 are relevant because that is how most of their music is listened to. U2's streaming numbers are tiny compared to their album sales numbers both physical and digital.

Please, spare us your crazy comparisons with horses and cars. You really think listening to an album on a physical CD or in a digital format is the equivalent of riding a horse into town as opposed to going in a CAR?! Are you NUTS? CD or digital album = horse while youtube/spotify = a car?  There is virtually no difference in sound quality. The only difference is that in one case the artist gets payed directly and while in the other a service is payed and then the artist might make some money from the service. You enjoy youtube/spotify because its essentially free music or cost very little money. Your philosophy is screw the artist! Who cares if they make any money for their work. It fits with your lazy ass lets sit down at concerts perspective as well.

Finally, I put I lot of time in collecting the information found in this thread. If your not interested in it or don't like it, why the hell do you bother reading and posting in it?

I spend around $500/year on musicians, most of which goes directly into their pockets, not siphoned off to a major label.  I think I do my fair share as a patron of the arts.  I post because Iím very interested in the evolution of the business model for the performing arts.  You and I just disagree on whether its good or bad for most artists.

In thinking the car/buggy analogy is wrong you are making the same mistake the industry initially made.  They thought the point of Napster was theft.  There is a huge advantage to streaming over digital downloads or CDs.  Its called convenience.  You donít understand that because its not relevant to you.  Streaming is continuing to grow and eventually enough people will be paying the monthly fee that the services and artists will both make money.  Or it wonít grow and in that case it will die.  The jury is still out.

Again, most people never bought more than one CD per month.  The same revenue into the system as streaming.  Its not that high of a hurdle.

Most young people pay for it.  Its the older people who think its the enemy that are undermining its success.

In the United States, the music industry revenues were 21.5 BILLION in 1999, adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). By 2015, revenues were 6.9 BILLION dollars adjusted for inflation(2017 dollars). That's means by 2015 the music industry was making about 70% less than it was in 1999.

By comparison, United States GDP and total wealth grew 40% to 50% over that time period. That means if the music industry had kept pace with normal economic trends its revenues by 2015 should be in the $30 BILLION dollar range. Instead they are at $6.9 BILLION. That is a total DISASTER.


So what happened? Did people stop listening to music? Nope. Are less people listening to music? Nope. In fact, more people are listening to music today than ever before thanks to population growth. What happened is that the vast majority of people STOPPED paying for music or at the very least started paying only a fraction of what they used to pay.

A 70% drop in businness, likely 80% if you look at what the music business should be earning now given average economic growth, is a disaster. People simply won't pay for what they can get for free. When people don't pay a business for the service it provides, it suffers enormous losses.

Wonderful for the consumer, terrible for the business. How would you like it if 80% of your wealth and earnings were wiped out?

Streaming subscriptions are now where near to replacing what has been lost. Your idea's about what people used to buy are grossly inaccurate as the numbers show.
40
The Band / Re: MacPhisto Worship Thread
« Last post by ShankAsu on September 24, 2018, 01:38:52 PM »
i just don't like how the tour in Europe has turned into a EU political rally.  I applaud the band's humanitarianism but wish they'd leave politics alone.
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