Author Topic: The Clean Concert Pledge  (Read 6297 times)

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virgin_prune

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2010, 02:22:34 AM »
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First of all, I go away for a while and I see everything in here is status quo with heated debates!!  LOL.   :D And near thread derailment!   ::)

@birdlover -
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P8, shortly after the concert I read it  somewhere that the homeless came in a grabbed all the 'furniture'.It could have been in my local paper (I'm in Wisconsin) or online, but I know I read it and felt better about all the junk going to good use.
I'll be there again this July, GA...are you going again?


- Thanks for the reply and that's great.  I won't be in CHI 2010 unless plans change.  Could happen but probably out of my budget.  I'm going to DEN instead.  8)

I also agree with you and some other fans here, that leaving garbage & crap for others to clean up b/c there are hired staff/ workers is crazy.  Passing the buck ( and the "labor" on) is irresponsible and selfish if not arrogant.  Sure, its the workers "job" and they are paid laborers but we are all "guests" of sorts to both the stadium and its grounds.  Its not the "environment" or "nature" per se, as some here say - its an urban environment that we live in and share.  We should take pride and care with both. 

Another analogy is - Would you go for dinner at your mother's or friends and leave dishes and garbage all over their home?  Sure, Mom or your friends can pick up after you and will but its a selfish, inconsiderate, entitled and crappy attitude to have. 

@ briscotechque - LMFAO!   :D :D :D   You always bring levity and I love you for that! 
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But the food vendors just go around at the end of the show, pick up all the sh**e and re-sell it at the following night's concert.
By cleaning it up you are depriving food catering staff of their livlihood.
You bunch of insensitive treehuggers.
FILL A BURRITO - DROP MORE RUBBISH

@virginprunes or whoever you are ( I have an idea) - You've a right to your opinions as this is a forum.  It would seem however, that you post enough forceful opinions repeatedly, even within a thread, that it annoys most members.   Discussing the pros or cons of the band is fine and can be either intellectually stimulating or food for thought.   Hammering your opinion down doesn't prove a point.  It only further annoys.   

To address your points ( truncated here): 

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I see what you mean - but this is a forum for discussing something. I have some positive things to say about the band and some negative things. Although most of the negativity comes from U2 over the past 8 years or so. I, like a lot of people, think bono in particular is a bit offensive. That doesn't stop me having an opinion and caring about a band I once loved. Equally, you may not agree with my opinions and I may not agree with yours but there may be small amounts of inspiration to be gained from even the most negative posts.

.....'Never mind the fact that the first people to suffer because of global warming will be developing countries. Or that Greece is on the verge of collapse, the euro is in turmoil, the world economy almost collapsed, the sea levels are slowly rising and we're all going to fry. Or that the UK and America are in a dangerous war they can't win - and the world is running out of oil.

But as long as U2 get to put on a big show with a dumb stage set and make loads of money, that's fine.

.....it's really down to the government and scientific communities to come up with effective solutions' - I couldn't agree less. Governments have a rich history of doing exactly... nothing - witness the last 'earth summit' or whatever it was called. Ignorant bureaucrats arguing amongst themselves. And here we are, nothing changes, nothing ever will. The world is on a crash course to a huge environmental catastrophe. As the saying goes, 'the personal is the political' - every one of us has a responsibility to change things.

Carbon offsets are a massive cop out and just move responsibility from one place to another. As one scientist said on the radio the other day, 'the only way to limit carbon is to consume less'. By consume he meant fossil fuels, products etc.

U2 may some marketing waffle on their website about offsetting carbon, but is anyone really niave to believe bono and his chums lead a carbon neutral life style? Or the huge footprint from 360 can be offset?

The point is, there are ways of living, touring, etc etc that are well though out. To say it isn't everyone's responsibility is dangerous.

@virginprunes - You might be surprised that I somewhat agree with you.   in part.  Not totally but in large part.   I do hear what you are saying about U2's own responsibility, your opinions on carbon offsets & the environment, and the effects on Africa.  And how you see that hypocritical perhaps as a lack of integrity.  I hear you on that. 

The 360 tour does appear outright gluttonous & has a massive impact on the environment with its emissions etc, notwithstanding the travel by band and all the fans who travel to their concerts as well as the manufacture of T-shirts and memorabilia mainly imported ( T-shirts are from Mexico).  Others here have noted that U2 have purchased carbon offsets on this tour and likely only a small fraction of fans have done this too.  Much more needs to be done.  Definitely.

On the other hand, as others have mentioned, the environmental problems we face globally, are ALL of our responsibility and including with our governmental  leaders and ourselves individually.   Not either or but BOTH.  N. America in particular ( Canada & US) and likely Australia as well, as well as the fast developing countries & emitters of China and India - are the biggest emitters.    N. America in particular ( Canada & US) but the US primarily are the biggest consumers of the world, by far.  Our staunch sense of entitlement,  our consumerism and over-consumption, has been insatiable and even in comparison with Europe and the UK.  Bigger houses, faster cars, more things many which are frivolous, and ALOT of waste & garbage. 

As an ironic note here:  We are all using computers here to discuss these issues on the forum.  Fans having frivolous fun to serious discussions.  You are using a computer as are all of us.  That takes tangible energy ( read: emission impacts) and the CDs, DVD's concerts etc, and even downloading has an impact.  Is that worthy of emissions & impact or not?  What's an acceptable level? 

So until many more of us around the globe STAND UP and demand our governments pay attention and address these environmental concerns and impacts,  - blaming U2 for the world's ails is a bit misplaced.  Not entirely but I believe, more than a little. 

And until or unless we as individuals start to change both our mindset and spending habits to become more conscious of where things come from and what we buy ( or waste) the effects of our consumerism and present lifestyles will continue to contribute & deplete our local natural resources and the global environment we all share.  That includes the major emissions from shipping consumer products from countries that often abuse human & workers rights so we can have "cheaper" & more products, rather than paying more for products made by local workers.

To that - There are concessions and growing pains, as well as some kind of compromise or balance.  We and U2 are taking small steps in the right direction but we all need to do more.   Does that mean we all live like paupers and only have the necessities?  No.  We share, contribute and tithe what we can, we do what we can locally & hopefully make informed and better choices and we can do this globally too if one has the means or through government. And we try to find some balance that is acceptable.  At present we have not had any "balance" and it sometimes appalls me when fans or outsiders just feel the right to more and more.  Stuff.  Shows.  More from the band b/c it is not enough.   And what are you doing for your part?  ( meaning collectively all of us) 

Ali has started EDUN - which is a relatively small but socially and globally conscious company.  Diehard U2 fans know this company although many people outside of our community & the fashion world do not.   She has mixed consumerism ( which will never die completely & shouldn't - it boosts our countries' economies), human rights, help for local African workers in their own economy and esteem, and while these clothes are shipped a long long way ( more emissions) - it addresses more issues than many companies & corporations. 

ONE/ MPH & (RED) have increased awareness for Bono's political concerns with Africa and with Corporate America, as well as with individual citizens across the globe.  The consciousness they have raised for Africa and about OUR CHOICES is quite broad and widespread.  I think that whether you agree or not with Bono's politics, his tactics or his or the band's choices, you cannot fail them that.   Fans and hopefully citizens or non-fans have an increased awareness if not just a little, of the choices they are making and whether or not that is about Africa or not, in their local communities, and the world over.  I think that's pretty commendable. 

I also think - Bono tries to find a "balance" in his choices, lifestyle and in doing more "right" than wrong.   I think he and the band are acutely aware of the opinions of their fanbase both musically and otherwise, and they try to please us as best possible.

As for your comment re:
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....big bloated corporation making fantastic amounts of money. bono seems to have an opinion on everything but his own irresponsibility.

First up to this point, the 360 tour has not made money.  They will make money this 4th leg.  ZOOTV did not make a lot of money nor did POP.  They make money and have made a LOT of money collectively, and while CD sales diminish, they are a big corporation.  If they made decisions strictly on the bottom line corporately, they would not have put on the kind of concert tours they have now and in past, and I feel they have tried to keep artistic and personal integrity in the decisions they have made.  They have given fans and the world much more than many bands put together, both literally and figuratively speaking.  And that is aside from any personal or corporate donations they may be making as a band or individuals of the band. 

Moreover - I can't speak for Bono but I think he's spread pretty thin as it is.  He is not perfect by far but I think he's miles ahead of the majority as far as doing his part.  The Environment is not his primary concern but he's definitely aware of it and is concerned about it.  They otherwise would NOT be buying carbon offsets to try to limit their impacts of this tour.   He concentrates on his main issues of Africa and raising awareness and consciousness  about his political issues, our global responsibility to the poor, and other important issues, I think,  both locally and in Africa.  He does that tirelessly by meeting with leaders around the world, his various organizations.   

In other words, and in relation to this thread - It is not just Bono or U2's responsibility to cure all the ails of the world or pick up our crap.  Its our responsibility and we all need to do more to make our communities and world better.  Leaving it all up to "someone else", whether gov't or cheap labourers, is the biggest cop out. 

Peace & Amen. 




Well, thank you for an intelligent post - and a well thought out post. Preferable to the knee jerk 'how dare anyone critisise bono' reactions most people post on here.

I agree with you - it's a fantastically complex thing. But, complexity aside, the principle is the same. 1 person, a small company, a huge corporation - everyone's contribution is important to the environment.

In terms of U2, I'm not critisising them for being in a band, touring the world, flying in private jets etc. Hell, I'd do that if I could!!!! Wouldn't you? What sticks in my throat and a lot of other people's throats is, as usual, bono. The ludicrous idea of him campaigning for Africa, while leading a lifestyle the directly contributes towards its increasing problems is, er, ludicrous. Global warming is a threat that will pick off developing countries way before it picks off bono in his huge house in green and pleasant Ireland.

So, the question remains: What would you have bono do? Nothing?

bono doesn't have to do nothing - campaigning for Africa is fantastic. But what u2 should be doing is playing their part. Carbon offsets as described earlier just shift responsibility. bono isn't an easy target because he's an idiot - or a fraud. He's an easy target because he come across as being a self serving fool. When I was growing up, U2 were my favourite band - one of the reasons was that they seemed to have integrity. I loved their Amnesty International work. And Greenpeace. bono was a role model for me.

I love U2's music - but I can't stand bono. Same with lots of other people.

Your point about the 360 tour seems to imply that everything has to get bigger to survive. U2 don't have to cart 3 stages around the world with a cast of thousands, racking up unbelievable amounts of air miles. Wouldn't it be a brilliant show of 'artistic integrity' if for once they actually put 'integrity' before the bottom line of a huge profit?



Offline StrongGirl

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2010, 11:57:06 AM »
Interesting point...love U2's music but can't stand Bono. I am sure lots of fans feel this way. But for me, I just couldn't love a band if I didn't like the people in the band beyond just the music. Now of course, I don't know them personally. I understand that. It is just how I feel about it. I consider their music to be a big part of who they are. It is like an artist with his paintings. To me, it is a window to their soul.

Oh well,  I am drifting and should get back on topic.  :D

virgin_prune

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2010, 12:38:54 PM »
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Interesting point...love U2's music but can't stand Bono. I am sure lots of fans feel this way. But for me, I just couldn't love a band if I didn't like the people in the band beyond just the music. Now of course, I don't know them personally. I understand that. It is just how I feel about it. I consider their music to be a big part of who they are. It is like an artist with his paintings. To me, it is a window to their soul.

Oh well,  I am drifting and should get back on topic.  :D

Well, I hear that. And I would agree with you when you say their music is a part of who they are. And that's why I used to love them.

But, for whatever reason, they used to walk it like they talk it. Now, they have become so divorced from reality that their music stops meaning anything. For me anyway.

A few people here have commented on how negative my posts are - fair enough. But I feel negative about a band I used to love. But interested enough to post onto the forum.

Anyway, this isn't about me - if people talk about the environment then that's got to be a good thing.

The environment is the single biggest threat to all life forms. Not AIDS, not terrorism, not hunger. Bono take note - if you really care, stop doing what you're doing. Be responsible. Personal sacrifice is the only way this problem is going to get solved. We don't need another massive tour. Make lovely music like you used to - who cares about daft stage sets and private jets.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 12:40:58 PM by virgin_prune »

Offline StrongGirl

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2010, 01:37:28 PM »
You make some very valid points. As much as I still love them, I won' t lie . It left a very bad taste in my mouth when they asked for $ 100.00 for the new Rose Bowl DVD. 

Yes, it is very important to talk and care about the environment. Absolutely!

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2010, 01:55:09 PM »
The Environment is a very contentious issue.  For instance, scientists are divided in opinion on the extent of global warming and they know more than me. ???



virgin_prune

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2010, 10:17:38 AM »
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The Environment is a very contentious issue.  For instance, scientists are divided in opinion on the extent of global warming and they know more than me. ???




Most scientists agree global warming is a significant threat to human life. The only one's that don't are motivated by politics and money. Same as it ever was.

We ignore it at our peril.

Offline hj

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2010, 10:29:57 AM »
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You make some very valid points. As much as I still love them, I won' t lie . It left a very bad taste in my mouth when they asked for $ 100.00 for the new Rose Bowl DVD. 

Me too.  I will not be buying it. 

Offline u2pinstripes

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2010, 10:34:25 AM »
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The Environment is a very contentious issue.  For instance, scientists are divided in opinion on the extent of global warming and they know more than me. ???




Most scientists agree global warming is a significant threat to human life. The only one's that don't are motivated by politics and money. Same as it ever was.

We ignore it at our peril.

False.  A scientist actually just released a report saying that global cooling is coming.  And talk about politics and money, do you understand how much money Al Gore makes off of global warming??  He's about to become a BILLIONAIRE off of this.  And his film has six or seven major fallacies.  Most scientists I have met who have nothing to gain or lose from this situation say that global warming is just the Earth going through cycles.  We have minimal affect on it.  Anyway..

virgin_prune

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2010, 11:59:45 AM »
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The Environment is a very contentious issue.  For instance, scientists are divided in opinion on the extent of global warming and they know more than me. ???




c The only one's that don't are motivated by politics and money. Same as it ever was.

We ignore it at our peril.

False.  A scientist actually just released a report saying that global cooling is coming.  And talk about politics and money, do you understand how much money Al Gore makes off of global warming??  He's about to become a BILLIONAIRE off of this.  And his film has six or seven major fallacies.  Most scientists I have met who have nothing to gain or lose from this situation say that global warming is just the Earth going through cycles.  We have minimal affect on it.  Anyway..

'False'? Are you saying 'false' because 1 scientist released a report? So what if Al Gore is making money? I couldn't care less.

I feel sure you have met many leading scientists. However it is generally accepted that the world is heating up, ice caps are melting, the sea is becoming more acidic and we are ruining our natural environment.

But maybe you are right and everyone else's statements are 'false' - let's hope so.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2010, 03:53:29 PM »
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The Environment is a very contentious issue.  For instance, scientists are divided in opinion on the extent of global warming and they know more than me. ???




Most scientists agree global warming is a significant threat to human life. The only one's that don't are motivated by politics and money. Same as it ever was.

We ignore it at our peril.

False.  A scientist actually just released a report saying that global cooling is coming.  And talk about politics and money, do you understand how much money Al Gore makes off of global warming??  He's about to become a BILLIONAIRE off of this.  And his film has six or seven major fallacies.  Most scientists I have met who have nothing to gain or lose from this situation say that global warming is just the Earth going through cycles.  We have minimal affect on it.  Anyway..

It's not false to say that most scientists agree that global warming is a serious problem. That's not to say there's uncertainty within the scientific community, there is. None of us know either way so lets not pretend we do. I would say that it can't be good for the environment to pump CO2 and nitrates into the atmosphere. I'm not going to have a go at Bono for it, because we're all guilty of damaging the environment.

Offline p8ru2

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2010, 04:02:17 PM »
"Global Warming" is a misnomer...  ::)  Its more accurately "climate change" with severe swings in weather (increased severity of storms, droughts, flooding heatwaves, oceanic temp rises etc) and the effects that has on environment, food, water, wildlife, insects,  and populations ( "us").  

Anyway, back on topic - both with immediate urban environments, U2 and fans...  :)


Offline p8ru2

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Re: The Clean Concert Pledge
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2010, 05:14:16 PM »
@virginprunes...

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.....But, for whatever reason, they used to walk it like they talk it. Now, they have become so divorced from reality that their music stops meaning anything. For me anyway.

....The environment is the single biggest threat to all life forms. Not AIDS, not terrorism, not hunger. Bono take note - if you really care, stop doing what you're doing. Be responsible. Personal sacrifice is the only way this problem is going to get solved. We don't need another massive tour. Make lovely music like you used to - who cares about daft stage sets and private jets.

Sorry you are so disenchanted and divorced from U2.   I agree with this ( highlighted portion) in part, and to individuals, fans, Bono and the band.  Consciousness and responsibility to improve and maintain our immediate and global environment & communities is all of our responsibilities and not just some;  and I'd say, whether or not Climate change is "real" or not ( which imo is real).  We can all do better including Bono & Co.  While the band has a long affiliation in supporting Greenpeace, they do fall short on being more outwardly/ publicly environmentally minded, except for the carbon credits.   

That said, I disagree however, with Bono or the band being "so divorced from reality".  I think that is incorrect.  I think Bono ( and the band) are artists/ musicians first and foremost.  He is also a celebrity with alot of clout and very public socio-political activism for Africa,  along with all the organizations that have sprung from that.  And his activism has inspired and changed the lives of many both fans, non-fans and the health and lives of many Africans.  So that is hardly "divorced from reality".    It is just not covering the environment, which is as you say, is more critical and will affect Africans and other equatorial countries and continents most. 

In his defence, I'd say that Bono is overstretched as it is with his music, businesses and activism.  He and the band have an already wide array of charities and causes, as well as their music and business interests;   and he retains more credibility in sticking with a more limited scope of public activism ( Africa) than if he were to spread himself thinner and thinner.   Or if he were to jump ship and focus primarily on the environment.   

I don't know if as a band of individuals, whether or not the all members can be expected to "do right" by everything and every cause....  I think Bono and the band have done a pretty great job and better than most bands and individuals in doing "good" and to try to make a difference, to the lives of many and both musically, spiritually and politically.  And they've raised alot of awareness not just in their causes and charities but for others as well ( if these boards are any indication).    Their focus is just not the environment, at least not publicly in a big way ( since Sellafield) and we don't know about privately.   Ali's EDUN ( which Bono has reportedly invested in) does promote sustainability with organic farming & crops (raw sources), jobs and commerce in Africa for export, so it is quite conscious & responsible although exports = emissions.  And Edge has has difficulties with his Malibu development ( business and pleasure),  even though he has reportedly taken environmental concerns into consideration. 

In their defense re: comments about moneymaking & big tours... While they are definitely "corporate",  are a business, and have made tons of money in their 30+years in the music industry,  I feel that they have always been a band and artists first and foremost.   I think they try to be very conscious and conscientious to please fans as well as themselves creatively & otherwise.   And they seem to try to balance their business interests on top of that.  They've always put the music, shows and fans first, well, except for the taxation issue.

Contrary to some statements here,  I don't think the band has put as much thought to the costs of touring as some here say, and whether that be environmentally or fiscally speaking... nor have they been purely about "money" or "greed".   (eg) ZOOTV tour, POP,  and 360.   Those tours indicate that they've been 'dreaming big and out loud' both in concept, artistry, scale and technologies, to present and compliment their music as well as in wanting to please both themselves and fans.   And less with concerns about cost and profits, at least until after the tours.   

ZOOTV did not make a ton of money but was a great success with fans, the public, and music industry.  POP was pretty well bust and even bigger.   Those stadium tours were and are huge costly productions that did not rake in the dough as many think but rather focused on both the music, concept and spectacle.   And those tours have gained massive praise from most diehards and more casual or non-fans.  360 is the only big stadium tour that is slated to make a lot of money and only starting this next leg ( if it does indeed start).   

Also, until recently, touring was a means to promote bands and album sales whereas now, touring is now the primary mode of money-making for bands, especially established bands, and not recorded media.   The band's increased interest  in investing in & using new technologies in shows from ZOOTV onwards is notable, including the smaller Elevation & Vertigo staging & lighting, and the expanding video tunnel for 360.   They offer simple Cds but CD sales have been dying due to internet downloading & trading, and digital purchases are down significantly compared to pre-digital times.  In order to make money and be able to put on elaborate tours,  they offer a variety of price points to fans to allow the broadest base to attend, and these are overall cheaper than many similar established bands.  And like many established bands, they are now offering a variety of media in "deluxe" or "collector" editions, as well as live streaming & fanclub to supplement the losing battle with hard media alone.  They're options that may make up for the losses in other areas.    They supported iPod then Blackberry technologies and in doing so, they have tapped into new markets & fan bases and likely made investments in those companies.  Their Elevation Corp has also really chased new technologies and often at great financial loss ( Palm etc).

Now that's not to say they haven't made money or to make excuses either.   I'm just thinking out loud as to why they chose to put on a big massive tour like this, and how difficult it may be to balance all the interests of the 4 + 1 members of U2, which is pretty varied and extensive as is.   I just don't know whether or not its possible for an individual, even Bono,  to cover all bases to be a complete "saint" and also to be taken seriously and credibly.  That may be asking too much.  Same with "corporate U2".   Those are hard balances to strike, that's for sure, and they are by far not perfect & have made mistakes.  Perhaps given recent events, he's pushed himself too far and too thin already (?)