Author Topic: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love  (Read 5062 times)

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Offline KitCat

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 01:30:40 AM »
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U2 are not creating any jobs by avoiding tax, instead they are accumulating even greater wealth to bequeath to their beneficiaries through a tax free foundation in Holland.  Their children will AVOID inheritance taxes while the beneficiaries of much more modest estates in Ireland will have to pay inheritance tax - It's a double tax avoidance, or as The Edge might say, it's very "tax-efficient".

And I don't think the Irish government is going to be just "pi**ing away" much needed tax revenues, they'll be spending it on public services and increased welfare benefit spending largely brought about because of the global financial crisis, in which Ireland has been particularly badly hit.



Well if they're investing in business in Ireland, then yes, they would be creating employment. But my point was, from the way people are talking here, it does sound like the Irish government can't handle their economy. Now I don't know if that truly is the case or not, but that's just the impression everyone seems to be giving.

Offline Yukona [The League of Extraordinary Bonopeople]

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 02:01:23 AM »
Are we seriously talking about a rock and roll band saving a nation's economy?!

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2010, 02:10:59 AM »
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Are we seriously talking about a rock and roll band saving a nation's economy?!

No, I'm talking about a very wealthy group of individuals who boast of their Irishness not paying their fair share of tax in their home country.





Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2010, 02:17:16 AM »
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U2 are not creating any jobs by avoiding tax, instead they are accumulating even greater wealth to bequeath to their beneficiaries through a tax free foundation in Holland.  Their children will AVOID inheritance taxes while the beneficiaries of much more modest estates in Ireland will have to pay inheritance tax - It's a double tax avoidance, or as The Edge might say, it's very "tax-efficient".

And I don't think the Irish government is going to be just "pi**ing away" much needed tax revenues, they'll be spending it on public services and increased welfare benefit spending largely brought about because of the global financial crisis, in which Ireland has been particularly badly hit.

Well if they're investing in business in Ireland, then yes, they would be creating employment. But my point was, from the way people are talking here, it does sound like the Irish government can't handle their economy. Now I don't know if that truly is the case or not, but that's just the impression everyone seems to be giving.

So because the Irish banking sector has become virtually bankrupt due to the global financial crisis, Irish people shouldn't have to pay their fair share of taxes, or does that just apply to U2. ???



The Promenade

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2010, 03:18:52 AM »
Ladies,

here are the key points:

1) Ireland got itself into this mess out of self interest.

2) The banking sector helped Ireland and the rest of the world get into this mess out of their self interest.

3) The UK is giving 8BN to Ireland not out of charity but out of self interest. The already fragile UK economy cannot afford for Ireland to go under.

4) U2 are a business - as a business, every business decision they make will be out of self interest.

5) U2 playing a few gigs in Ireland may help the local economy short term, but it will be a drop in the ocean in terms of Ireland's wider problems.

If, say, Nestle moved their affairs to Holland, would you all be up in arms about that? No? So what's the difference with U2. Both companies sell a product to make money. If the most tax efficient way to make money is to take part of the business abroad, so what? Is it legal? Yes. Is it moral? Possibly not. I couldn't care less what U2 do - they have a right to conduct their business as they wish.

Obviously bono banging on about being proud being Irish and starving people doesn't sit well with this hard nosed business model. But then that's why people don't like him - which isn't really news to anyone...


Offline KitCat

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2010, 04:06:57 AM »
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U2 are not creating any jobs by avoiding tax, instead they are accumulating even greater wealth to bequeath to their beneficiaries through a tax free foundation in Holland.  Their children will AVOID inheritance taxes while the beneficiaries of much more modest estates in Ireland will have to pay inheritance tax - It's a double tax avoidance, or as The Edge might say, it's very "tax-efficient".

And I don't think the Irish government is going to be just "pi**ing away" much needed tax revenues, they'll be spending it on public services and increased welfare benefit spending largely brought about because of the global financial crisis, in which Ireland has been particularly badly hit.

Well if they're investing in business in Ireland, then yes, they would be creating employment. But my point was, from the way people are talking here, it does sound like the Irish government can't handle their economy. Now I don't know if that truly is the case or not, but that's just the impression everyone seems to be giving.

So because the Irish banking sector has become virtually bankrupt due to the global financial crisis, Irish people shouldn't have to pay their fair share of taxes, or does that just apply to U2. ???


Firstly, the GFC happened because of mismanagement throughout the world on the part of both banks and governments, so you can't just blame the banks and say governments were blameless; anyone with half a brain cell could tell that the proverbial was going to hit the fan sooner or later and governments worldwide sat back and did nothing.
I never said people shouldn't pay tax, but you have to expect that people will minimise their tax to the fullest extent under the law and why should U2 the business be any different? And if in the process of minimising tax they are able to further invest in Ireland and create more employment, thereby creating more tax revenue, then that's probably better for the country anyway. It's perfectly legal, is it moral, well that's another question.

As for the hypocrisy of it, I agreed with you, it is somewhat hypocritical, but by the same token, why doesn't U2 the business give all of its money away to African charities? Because its a business, not Bono's personal slush fund; if they didn't run it like a business then they wouldn't be able to earn their personal income which they still pay tax on in Ireland, they wouldn't be able to afford to put on the tours and keep making the music which gives them the supporter base and the power for Bono to do his charity work. As Bono himself said, the reason politicians listen to him is not because of him, it's because of his fans; so if there's no money, there's no music and there's no fans, therefore no money to give to charity, no money to pay in tax, and Bono wouldn't be able to campaign for human rights issues the way he does. Everything that they do is dependant upon the success of the business. Charity within a capitalist society can only exist through the success of business, you could call any wealthy philanthropist a hypocrite eg Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Angelina "adopt half of Africa" Jolie, etc. etc. etc. It's better than them being an Ayn Rand devotee.

At the end of the day, the band members pay tax in Ireland, they support Irish charities and lets be honest, the tax from U2 isn't going to get the Irish economy out of the s#!++er anyway (and even if it could, without a proper economic stimulus plan, it would be money down the drain).

Offline xy

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2010, 06:16:37 AM »
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Are we seriously talking about a rock and roll band saving a nation's economy?!

It's fascinating.

There was never any problem with the tax move to Holland...other than the (very) thinly disguised "rich man wants to pay less tax" , uh, I mean, "activist denies his own money to the poverty of Africa".

Which is a nice chuckling matter given the amounts of money Ireland has gotten over the years from U2, and the amount of aid gone to Africa because of Bono's involvement.




Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2010, 01:09:17 PM »
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U2 are not creating any jobs by avoiding tax, instead they are accumulating even greater wealth to bequeath to their beneficiaries through a tax free foundation in Holland.  Their children will AVOID inheritance taxes while the beneficiaries of much more modest estates in Ireland will have to pay inheritance tax - It's a double tax avoidance, or as The Edge might say, it's very "tax-efficient".

And I don't think the Irish government is going to be just "pi**ing away" much needed tax revenues, they'll be spending it on public services and increased welfare benefit spending largely brought about because of the global financial crisis, in which Ireland has been particularly badly hit.

Well if they're investing in business in Ireland, then yes, they would be creating employment. But my point was, from the way people are talking here, it does sound like the Irish government can't handle their economy. Now I don't know if that truly is the case or not, but that's just the impression everyone seems to be giving.

So because the Irish banking sector has become virtually bankrupt due to the global financial crisis, Irish people shouldn't have to pay their fair share of taxes, or does that just apply to U2. ???


Firstly, the GFC happened because of mismanagement throughout the world on the part of both banks and governments, so you can't just blame the banks and say governments were blameless; anyone with half a brain cell could tell that the proverbial was going to hit the fan sooner or later and governments worldwide sat back and did nothing.
I never said people shouldn't pay tax, but you have to expect that people will minimise their tax to the fullest extent under the law and why should U2 the business be any different? And if in the process of minimising tax they are able to further invest in Ireland and create more employment, thereby creating more tax revenue, then that's probably better for the country anyway. It's perfectly legal, is it moral, well that's another question.

As for the hypocrisy of it, I agreed with you, it is somewhat hypocritical, but by the same token, why doesn't U2 the business give all of its money away to African charities? Because its a business, not Bono's personal slush fund; if they didn't run it like a business then they wouldn't be able to earn their personal income which they still pay tax on in Ireland, they wouldn't be able to afford to put on the tours and keep making the music which gives them the supporter base and the power for Bono to do his charity work. As Bono himself said, the reason politicians listen to him is not because of him, it's because of his fans; so if there's no money, there's no music and there's no fans, therefore no money to give to charity, no money to pay in tax, and Bono wouldn't be able to campaign for human rights issues the way he does. Everything that they do is dependant upon the success of the business. Charity within a capitalist society can only exist through the success of business, you could call any wealthy philanthropist a hypocrite eg Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Angelina "adopt half of Africa" Jolie, etc. etc. etc. It's better than them being an Ayn Rand devotee.

At the end of the day, the band members pay tax in Ireland, they support Irish charities and lets be honest, the tax from U2 isn't going to get the Irish economy out of the s#!++er anyway (and even if it could, without a proper economic stimulus plan, it would be money down the drain).

You said in a previous post "They'd be better off if they didn't pay tax and actually funnelled their money directly where it's needed i.e industry and creating jobs".

Well I'm sure that U2 would be better off but I don't see how their tax avoidance in Ireland stimulates the Irish economy or creates additional jobs in Ireland. ???

Paying their fair share of taxes doesn't stop them from engaging in philanthropic work, and it's absurd to compare U2 or Bono with Bill Gates because he's giving away a huge chuck of his personal fortune to philanthropic causes.

I think I am being naive about U2 though, as The Promenade suggested, and it seems that U2 really have become the Rolling Stones in more ways than one.




Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2010, 01:15:33 PM »
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Are we seriously talking about a rock and roll band saving a nation's economy?!

It's fascinating.

There was never any problem with the tax move to Holland...other than the (very) thinly disguised "rich man wants to pay less tax" , uh, I mean, "activist denies his own money to the poverty of Africa".

Which is a nice chuckling matter given the amounts of money Ireland has gotten over the years from U2, and the amount of aid gone to Africa because of Bono's involvement.

U2 have saved a fortune for decades from being based in Ireland with its previous regime of generous tax reliefs on artists royalties.  It now seems clear to me that if those tax reliefs hadn't existed they would have decamped from Ireland many years ago.



Offline Manos73

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2010, 10:39:28 PM »
To me, the context of this discussion is the same I give Al Gore.  Gore lobbies governments to grant billions of tax dollars to fight global warming.  He then  flies off in a private jet that uses my entire yearly carbon footprint in one flight.  Gore has the audacity to preach to me about being green?     

Bono, and to some existent U2, lobby governments to spend billions of their citizens taxes on huge international welfare schemes.  But when it comes right down to it, Bono wants to control as much of his own wealth as everyone else;
and keep it out of government coffers. 

Enter the crisis in Ireland, Bono's house. We now have a perfect opportunity for Bono to demonstrate how government spending can be effective in solving human misery.  But so far nothing.  I'm leery of being preached at by a welfare-state advocate who appears not to trust his own government with his taxes.  For those who argue that Bono knows better how to spend his money then governments, I would extend that logic further and humbly suggest that we all do.

Offline KitCat

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2010, 10:53:01 PM »
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You said in a previous post "They'd be better off if they didn't pay tax and actually funnelled their money directly where it's needed i.e industry and creating jobs".

Well I'm sure that U2 would be better off but I don't see how their tax avoidance in Ireland stimulates the Irish economy or creates additional jobs in Ireland. ???

Paying their fair share of taxes doesn't stop them from engaging in philanthropic work, and it's absurd to compare U2 or Bono with Bill Gates because he's giving away a huge chuck of his personal fortune to philanthropic causes.

I think I am being naive about U2 though, as The Promenade suggested, and it seems that U2 really have become the Rolling Stones in more ways than one.


I meant that in a hypothetical situation, mostly because everyone seems to be saying that the Irish government is inept, and IF (that's a big IF) that is indeed the case, then yes, they would be better minimising their tax and then using the money saved to invest in Ireland, which in turn creates employment which then creates higher tax revenues for the government.

I don't think it is absurd to compare Bono and Bill Gates, remember, U2 the business would be the same as Microsoft the business, would you criticise Microsoft for minimising its taxes? The USA is in recession also, so shouldn't they be doing as much for their country as U2 and Ireland? After all, Gates supports many of the same causes as Bono, wouldn't that make him equally as hypocritical? Is Bono not giving away not only his money but also a great deal his time for philanthropic causes? How exactly is Bono any different from Gates? You're a fool if you think Gates and every other rich person isn't minimising their tax and the tax of their companies.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2010, 11:26:46 PM »
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You said in a previous post "They'd be better off if they didn't pay tax and actually funnelled their money directly where it's needed i.e industry and creating jobs".

Well I'm sure that U2 would be better off but I don't see how their tax avoidance in Ireland stimulates the Irish economy or creates additional jobs in Ireland. ???

Paying their fair share of taxes doesn't stop them from engaging in philanthropic work, and it's absurd to compare U2 or Bono with Bill Gates because he's giving away a huge chuck of his personal fortune to philanthropic causes.

I think I am being naive about U2 though, as The Promenade suggested, and it seems that U2 really have become the Rolling Stones in more ways than one.


I meant that in a hypothetical situation, mostly because everyone seems to be saying that the Irish government is inept, and IF (that's a big IF) that is indeed the case, then yes, they would be better minimising their tax and then using the money saved to invest in Ireland, which in turn creates employment which then creates higher tax revenues for the government.

I don't think it is absurd to compare Bono and Bill Gates, remember, U2 the business would be the same as Microsoft the business, would you criticise Microsoft for minimising its taxes? The USA is in recession also, so shouldn't they be doing as much for their country as U2 and Ireland? After all, Gates supports many of the same causes as Bono, wouldn't that make him equally as hypocritical? Is Bono not giving away not only his money but also a great deal his time for philanthropic causes? How exactly is Bono any different from Gates? You're a fool if you think Gates and every other rich person isn't minimising their tax and the tax of their companies.

But U2 ARE NOT investing in the Irish economy or creating more employment with the money they save by depriving Ireland of much needed tax revenues; it is merely adding to their already swollen money bags.  I have to disagree when you say that IF the Irish government are inept, then U2 are justified to minimize their tax bill.  That's like saying that every taxpayer in a western industrialized nation that has been caught up in the GFC, is equally justified in minimising their taxes.




« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 11:46:26 PM by Tumbling Dice »

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2010, 11:53:43 PM »
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To me, the context of this discussion is the same I give Al Gore.  Gore lobbies governments to grant billions of tax dollars to fight global warming.  He then  flies off in a private jet that uses my entire yearly carbon footprint in one flight.  Gore has the audacity to preach to me about being green?     

Bono, and to some existent U2, lobby governments to spend billions of their citizens taxes on huge international welfare schemes.  But when it comes right down to it, Bono wants to control as much of his own wealth as everyone else;
and keep it out of government coffers. 

Enter the crisis in Ireland, Bono's house. We now have a perfect opportunity for Bono to demonstrate how government spending can be effective in solving human misery.  But so far nothing.  I'm leery of being preached at by a welfare-state advocate who appears not to trust his own government with his taxes.  For those who argue that Bono knows better how to spend his money then governments, I would extend that logic further and humbly suggest that we all do.

Yeah, it's funny how many people are keen to redistribute other people's money, but reluctant when it comes to their own.



Offline KitCat

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2010, 12:04:50 AM »
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You said in a previous post "They'd be better off if they didn't pay tax and actually funnelled their money directly where it's needed i.e industry and creating jobs".

Well I'm sure that U2 would be better off but I don't see how their tax avoidance in Ireland stimulates the Irish economy or creates additional jobs in Ireland. ???

Paying their fair share of taxes doesn't stop them from engaging in philanthropic work, and it's absurd to compare U2 or Bono with Bill Gates because he's giving away a huge chuck of his personal fortune to philanthropic causes.

I think I am being naive about U2 though, as The Promenade suggested, and it seems that U2 really have become the Rolling Stones in more ways than one.


I meant that in a hypothetical situation, mostly because everyone seems to be saying that the Irish government is inept, and IF (that's a big IF) that is indeed the case, then yes, they would be better minimising their tax and then using the money saved to invest in Ireland, which in turn creates employment which then creates higher tax revenues for the government.

I don't think it is absurd to compare Bono and Bill Gates, remember, U2 the business would be the same as Microsoft the business, would you criticise Microsoft for minimising its taxes? The USA is in recession also, so shouldn't they be doing as much for their country as U2 and Ireland? After all, Gates supports many of the same causes as Bono, wouldn't that make him equally as hypocritical? Is Bono not giving away not only his money but also a great deal his time for philanthropic causes? How exactly is Bono any different from Gates? You're a fool if you think Gates and every other rich person isn't minimising their tax and the tax of their companies.

But U2 ARE NOT investing in the Irish economy or creating more employment with the money they save by depriving Ireland of much needed tax revenues; it is merely adding to their already swollen money bags.  I have to disagree when you say that IF the Irish government are inept, then U2 are justified to minimize their tax bill.  That's like saying that every taxpayer in a western industrialized nation that has been caught up in the GFC, is equally justified in minimising their taxes.


I was talking in hypotheticals. But yes, every person and company in a capitalist system is justified in minimising their taxes. I don't necessarily believe that is the best thing for anyone, hell I'm more of a socialist, but in reality, we live in a capitalist system and therefore people are justified in minimising their tax to the fullest extent of the law.

Offline xy

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Re: Ireland Could Use Some U2 Love
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2010, 12:01:13 PM »
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Are we seriously talking about a rock and roll band saving a nation's economy?!

It's fascinating.

There was never any problem with the tax move to Holland...other than the (very) thinly disguised "rich man wants to pay less tax" , uh, I mean, "activist denies his own money to the poverty of Africa".

Which is a nice chuckling matter given the amounts of money Ireland has gotten over the years from U2, and the amount of aid gone to Africa because of Bono's involvement.

U2 have saved a fortune for decades from being based in Ireland with its previous regime of generous tax reliefs on artists royalties.  It now seems clear to me that if those tax reliefs hadn't existed they would have decamped from Ireland many years ago.




 
And you have no way of possibly knowing that.