Author Topic: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour  (Read 30075 times)

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Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2011, 05:25:27 PM »
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:27:02 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

satellitedog01

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2011, 05:28:28 PM »
One thing that comes to mind though that one can judge the quality of a show relative to a tour much better through bootlegs.
I think I've seen one of the best Elevation gigs, well certainly the prettiest (Berlin, Waldbühne), but listening to the bootleg it's pretty average compared to other Elevation gigs. So personal experience will exclude the feasibility of an objective comparison.

Let's take into account the possibility of your level of excitement clouding your judgement. That is also a question of age and exposure to exciting experiences in general and personalities. For a new fan it will be the greatest thing ever. As a first time U2 gig attendee I was thinking how lame and terrible this whole "How long to sing this song" ant colony crowd singing was. I got cynical to the community feel.
The second show I went to was a special show for the band (Vertigo, Katowicze, Poland), yet I was pretty much bored by the gig. The third show I saw after a series of unfortunate occurances forcing me to watch the gig from far away despite a GA ticket was much better than the second one even considering how bad I felt about the whole experience (which led me to swear off U2 stadium shows).

So I guess you can sort of calculate your own reactions to a situation, and thus can compare different tours on a personal level balancing pros and cons, imagining sounds and the feel of a concert.
Of course from an objective perspective this whole thread doesn't make sense.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2011, 05:31:00 PM »
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One thing that comes to mind though that one can judge the quality of a show relative to a tour much better through bootlegs.
I think I've seen one of the best Elevation gigs, well certainly the prettiest (Berlin, Waldbühne), but listening to the bootleg it's pretty average compared to other Elevation gigs. So personal experience will exclude the feasibility of an objective comparison.

Let's take into account the possibility of your level of excitement clouding your judgement. That is also a question of age and exposure to exciting experiences in general and personalities. For a new fan it will be the greatest thing ever. As a first time U2 gig attendee I was thinking how lame and terrible this whole "How long to sing this song" ant colony crowd singing was. I got cynical to the community feel.
The second show I went to was a special show for the band (Vertigo, Katowicze, Poland), yet I was pretty much bored by the gig. The third show I saw after a series of unfortunate occurances forcing me to watch the gig from far away despite a GA ticket was much better than the second one even considering how bad I felt about the whole experience (which led me to swear off U2 stadium shows).

So I guess you can sort of calculate your own reactions to a situation, and thus can compare different tours on a personal level balancing pros and cons, imagining sounds and the feel of a concert.
Of course from an objective perspective this whole thread doesn't make sense.

Sure...everything you said is spot on, I agree with all of it.  Emotions and your age, etc has a lot to do with how you viewed those shows. 360 was "missing" something for me, and perhaps the only difference is I was looking at it through older eyes. Yeah, totally subjective.  Comparing shows you were at is legitimate and everyone does it. But you're talking about shows you actually attended.  I'm simply saying that it's hard to compare a show you weren't at with one you were.  You can make the comparison, of course, but I'm going to take into account that you weren't at one of the shows in how I view your opinion.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:33:29 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #108 on: July 30, 2011, 05:42:40 PM »
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.

what if i were a botanist? theres so many aspects of the two i'd compare beyond how an apple i ate on one day and an orange i ate on another day tasted.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:47:30 PM by soapit »

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #109 on: July 30, 2011, 05:49:27 PM »
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.

what if i were a professional botanist?

 I'd trust you to tell me all about the chemical and organic composition of apples and oranges, what species and family they're from, where they grow, how they're cultivated, etc.  However, unless you actually tried both, I wouldn't give much weight to your opinion on which tasted better.  You could, of course, tell me how you think they taste based on research and anecdotal information, but you just really wouldn't know, would you?  I certainly wouldn't discount your opinion, but it would be more valid to me if you'd actually bothered to taste both fruit before telling me which one you prefer.

And yeah, the taste of the fruit can change from day to day...but at least you would have tasted them, and based your opinion at least partially on personal experience.

Of course, there are many more aspects to judging a tour beyond what you can see from actually experiencing it yourself...but if you're going to call one tour "better" than another, I think at a minimum, as a starting place and baseline, you should have actually been to the tours your talking about.  At the very least I'll give your opinion more weight that way.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:02:14 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #110 on: July 30, 2011, 06:05:50 PM »
you'd be right to, but this thread isnt just about which tasted better (experience of attending the concerts - if im following) as can be seen by the title.

even if i hadnt tasted them you wouldnt doubt my ability to compare the two species (the eras/tours overall - from the title) as i knew all that other fancy stuff.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #111 on: July 30, 2011, 06:18:57 PM »
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you'd be right to, but this thread isnt just about which tasted better (experience of attending the concerts - if im following) as can be seen by the title.

even if i hadnt tasted them you wouldnt doubt my ability to compare the two species (the eras/tours overall - from the title) as i knew all that other fancy stuff.

Right.  The thread is about someone saying 360 is a "better" era/tour than Z00TV.  If you believe that, fine.  No problem.  You're entitled your opinion.  I'm merely saying that, if you haven't actually been to both those shows, I'm not going to give your opinion a lot of weight. Or at least I'd tend to give it more weight if you had.

Perhaps if the original person who started this thread made a case for 360 beyond "it's more high tech and sold more tickets" (paraphrasing), I would have cut him some slack and taken his opinion more seriously. But there's a concept in the law about presumptions. Someone is presumed innocent, etc.  When you have a presumption, it's up to the other side to prove that presumption wrong.  I think there's a strong presumption in the U2 fan community that ZOOTV is "better" tour/era than 360.  Now, if you disagree with that, fine.  But if you're going to then come on here and say that 360 is superior to ZOOTV,  you should really have something to back up that opinion and rebut the existing presumption...and that includes having been to at least one ZOOTV tour before you start dissing it.  Again, if you wan't to say that, you can, it's your opinion..but I'm not really going to take you seriously unless you've got something to back it up.  And that should be more than just "360 was more high tech and sold more tickets than ZOOTV" for me to take you seriously.  If you're going to start saying that ZOOTV is inferior to 360 without attending a ZOOTV show, you better show me you know WTF you're talking about before you're going even start to convince me of anything. None of the posters who have said 360 is superior have really done that, IMO.

Let's put it this way...if I come on here and say "One" superior to all other U2 songs, people may disagree, but no one is really going to take much issue with that because there's a strong presumption that One is a U2 classic and among their greatest songs. I really don't have to explain why "One" is great...everyone knows it.  If I said "Wild Honey" was their greatest song, people are going to say..."What? Why do you think that? WTF are you talking about"?  And if I want people to take my opinion seriously, I need to be prepared to explain why I think it's their greatest.  "One" carries a presumption with it that "Wild Honey" does not.  I'd submit that the presumption among U2 fans is that ZOOTV is a superior tour/era to 360, and if you want to challenge that presumption, you need to be able to say why to be taken seriously.  And, again, seeing the show is part....but not all, of that.
  
I'm not saying actually going to the show is the final, be all, end all word. The Professor said he didn't make the Elevation tour, but I'd still take his word on the merits of that show vs. some stoned "casual" fan who was there but can't remember a damn thing about it.  However, if the Professor then started dissing Elevation and telling me how inferior it was to some other tour, I'll take the fact that he didn't actually see the show in person into account when judging his opinion.

And having said that, this horse is indeed dead, and for now I think I'll leave it to rot. :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:40:37 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2011, 06:31:06 PM »
yep.. fair enough.

Offline The Exile

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #113 on: July 30, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »
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I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended. 

OK, well those red flags that Bone-o waved on the November Tour were pretty good, but the War Tour-era version of Proud was a bit weak.

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2011, 09:53:54 PM »
Exile, "you're coming on a bit strong."

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Offline The Exile

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #115 on: July 30, 2011, 09:56:02 PM »
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Exile, "you're coming on a bit strong."

If I had a nickel....

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2011, 10:02:11 PM »
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But Gavin, I didn't ask you to do that assessment of U2's War Tour from the point of view of someone who WENT to the show.  I asked you to generate an educated, thoughtful analysis to see how well your conclusions from your research synced up with MY conclusions after having seen the tour AND done research/reading AND watched clips/videos/dvds of the tour.  If you're unwilling to do that, then we can't move forward here.  I'm pretty certain, though, that you would be able to draw the same conclusions I did WITHOUT having been to a War Tour show, but if you won't indulge the essay question then how will we know? 

I don't think this forum can end with a discussion of what formulates a valid/informed opinion and I don't think that's what it's really about, anyway.  But you've continued to hammer home the same point over and over again and are even now claiming that you yourself couldn't say what you thought about a tour without having seen a show from it despite your obviously well-informed dictionary/encyclopedia of U2 knowledge.  This makes no sense.

On one hand, you're presenting yourself as an informed U2 fan but on the other you're saying no I couldn't hazard a guess about that whole phase/tour of U2's career. 

There IS a whole area of study called Music History and THAT is what we're really debating about here.  Every one of us participating in this forum is weighing in on the significance of various aspects of U2's HISTORY, in this case the significance/value/quality of one tour versus another. 

I don't disagree with you that having firsthand experience of an event will give one an enhanced perspective on that event, that seems like a given that isn't even worth being debated about because it's so obvious.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that because a U2 fan hadn't experienced a particular tour that they cannot have an INFORMED opinion about it. 

There's a HUGE number of U2 fans on this forum who were born in 1983 and later and whose first awareness of the existence of U2 probably happened Achtung Baby-ish, +/- x number of years.  They may only have gotten interested in actually discussing U2 in an online forum like this circa 2000/All That You Can't Leave Behind.  I'm not about to suggest to any one of these U2 fans that their opinion about any tour they either weren't alive for or didn't attend isn't valid simply because they weren't there.

If your point is to hope for well-supported arguments that provide evidence and explanations behind opinions, I'm with you there. 

So instead of hoping you'll complete your essay assignment, I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended.  It would be cool to hear what people thought about the shows and tours that are now part of U2's mythology and legend.

 

so ..... what kind of professor are you?

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2011, 10:08:11 PM »
You'd have twenty-five cents at this point, I think.


Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2011, 04:05:16 AM »
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But Gavin, I didn't ask you to do that assessment of U2's War Tour from the point of view of someone who WENT to the show.  I asked you to generate an educated, thoughtful analysis to see how well your conclusions from your research synced up with MY conclusions after having seen the tour AND done research/reading AND watched clips/videos/dvds of the tour.  If you're unwilling to do that, then we can't move forward here.  I'm pretty certain, though, that you would be able to draw the same conclusions I did WITHOUT having been to a War Tour show, but if you won't indulge the essay question then how will we know? 

I don't think this forum can end with a discussion of what formulates a valid/informed opinion and I don't think that's what it's really about, anyway.  But you've continued to hammer home the same point over and over again and are even now claiming that you yourself couldn't say what you thought about a tour without having seen a show from it despite your obviously well-informed dictionary/encyclopedia of U2 knowledge.  This makes no sense.

On one hand, you're presenting yourself as an informed U2 fan but on the other you're saying no I couldn't hazard a guess about that whole phase/tour of U2's career. 

There IS a whole area of study called Music History and THAT is what we're really debating about here.  Every one of us participating in this forum is weighing in on the significance of various aspects of U2's HISTORY, in this case the significance/value/quality of one tour versus another. 

I don't disagree with you that having firsthand experience of an event will give one an enhanced perspective on that event, that seems like a given that isn't even worth being debated about because it's so obvious.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that because a U2 fan hadn't experienced a particular tour that they cannot have an INFORMED opinion about it. 

There's a HUGE number of U2 fans on this forum who were born in 1983 and later and whose first awareness of the existence of U2 probably happened Achtung Baby-ish, +/- x number of years.  They may only have gotten interested in actually discussing U2 in an online forum like this circa 2000/All That You Can't Leave Behind.  I'm not about to suggest to any one of these U2 fans that their opinion about any tour they either weren't alive for or didn't attend isn't valid simply because they weren't there.

If your point is to hope for well-supported arguments that provide evidence and explanations behind opinions, I'm with you there. 

So instead of hoping you'll complete your essay assignment, I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended.  It would be cool to hear what people thought about the shows and tours that are now part of U2's mythology and legend.

 

Since you were smart enough to delete this post, I'll be gracious enough to not respond.

"Essay Assignment"  LOL.

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so ..... what kind of professor are you?

I'd like to know that as well. :)

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Hi Gavin,

Oh, I didn't think you'd read that as you usually respond post haste.  I only deleted it after noticing that I'd missed your earlier post in which you began to assess the War Tour but then quickly threw up the white flag of surrender (appropriate) and conceded the debate. 

But since you actually read it (and reposted what I'd deleted somehow...not cool, man, not cool at all) and were off to a good start with your analysis of the War Tour, it would be great if you went on and wrote a few further paragraphs.  C'mon, indulge us.  This was a great beginning and an accurate assessment so far.  I was looking forward to reading more because you were on the right track.

"In any event, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've seen in those videos.  A young, idealistic band with lots of energy and something to prove..."

I'm pretty sure you already sensed, though, based on what you began to write, the obvious conclusion that one CAN create and educated and informed analysis/opinion about a tour without having attended its shows, especially when one has visual/video evidence to work with and years and years of analysis about the band and its history...and tours.

Anyway, it'll be a bore for the rest of those on the thread to read much more of this debate, though I AM arguing for the validity of the ideas of many individuals on @U2 and fighting for my fellow U2 fans, but after you turn in your essay, we can quickly all grade it and move on to debating how it's possible for you to not like 29% of U2's album songs...and I'll return the favor in trade & tell you my own U2 stories in response to your entertaining list some pages back. 

Cabiche?  Cabiche.