Author Topic: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour  (Read 30220 times)

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Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2011, 12:58:20 PM »
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You're totally missing my point, Gav. I am not saying that a person's bad opinion could not conceivably be changed if he actually were to experience the thing he thinks he doesn't like. I am asking whether a person can think a tour he hasn't seen is superior to the ones he has.

And if so, then what does that say about the role of personal experience?

I'm not sure how many ways I can answer that.  A person is entitled to "think" anything he likes.  If you want to "think" a tour your haven't seen is superior to one you have, of course you "can" do that.  I merely saying that if you express an opinion on that thought, I might not tend to give it as much validity to it as I would had you actually seen the tour in question.

What does that say about the role of personal experience? It tells me personal experience informs you opinion, and makes it more valid than if you didn't have that personal experience.

Is there something controversial about that?

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2011, 01:01:42 PM »
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I've got a good example.

I WILL admit that seeing the 360 Tour live changed my perceptions of it that had been formed from reading too much about it online, in the @U2 forums, and watching too many YouTube clips.  The magnitude and beauty of it all was not conveyed properly in those tiny clips, though it WAS mentioned numerous times in articles, reviews, and forum threads.  

But I didn't leave the show thinking, "that was better than ZOO TV."  The EXPERIENCE of it did not change my thinking in that regard, it only confirmed what had been written about the 360 Tour, actually.

If I HADN'T seen the 360 Tour I'd still have the same opinion about which one measured up best (ZOO TV) and am confident that the conclusions drawn from my research and reading would have been the same either way...because even having seen the show, they are exactly the same.



Great example.  And it's OK that your opinion didn't' change.  But I respect your opinion more, and think it's more valid, because you actually saw both shows.If you hand't seen 360, someone like OAP who loves it could come on here and say you don't know what you're missing, the youtube videos don't tell the whole story, etc.  But since you have seen it for yourself, you opinion has gained weight, and is less prone to questioning.

In this case, the experience confirmed what you already thought, and you have the experience to back up your opinion...giving that opinion more gravitas.

It's not about whether your initial opinion of 360 was right or wrong...it's about how much information you had in making that opinion.  Seeing the show in person was the best kind of information you could have to inform that opinion.   Therefore, your opinion is more "valid" having seen the show.

 Do you see what I'm getting at now?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 01:05:37 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2011, 01:06:37 PM »
Gavin Wrote: "...my argument, in a nutshell, is that some opinions are more valid than others, and those that are based on fact, education and experience will tend to be the most valid.  Simply reading about something, or watching a video, or researching it, is an experience of a kind, but it's not as substitute for experiencing it first hand.  And, after all the research in the world, your opinion can be changed, or at least become more valid, with first hand experience."

Gavin Did NOT Write: "...those that are based on EXPERIENCE will tend to be the most valid."  Gavin included fact and education in his thesis.  

But Then Gavin Wrote: "...reading/watching/researching" ... [are] "not a substitute for experiencing it first hand."

On one hand, Gavin, you give value to fact and research, but on the other hand you suggest that it's only with the addition of actual experience that an opinion will "at least become more valid."

Which is it, cuz you're kind of arguing for both even though you still maintain that OAP's opinion isn't entirely valid because they're lacking your third criteria.

I just think you have to narrow your thesis down to what it is you're REALLY saying, that opinions without firsthand knowledge of the topic being discussed, seemingly regardless of the topic since you mention examples from so many different areas, are less valid, if not invalid.

  

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2011, 01:08:25 PM »
You missed my point and seem to have overlooked the key statement of what I wrote: my opinion would be NO DIFFERENT if I hadn't seen the 360 Tour show, nor any less informed.


Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2011, 01:11:40 PM »
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Gavin Wrote: "...my argument, in a nutshell, is that some opinions are more valid than others, and those that are based on fact, education and experience will tend to be the most valid.  Simply reading about something, or watching a video, or researching it, is an experience of a kind, but it's not as substitute for experiencing it first hand.  And, after all the research in the world, your opinion can be changed, or at least become more valid, with first hand experience."

Gavin Did NOT Write: "...those that are based on EXPERIENCE will tend to be the most valid."  Gavin included fact and education in his thesis.  

But Then Gavin Wrote: "...reading/watching/researching" ... [are] "not a substitute for experiencing it first hand."

On one hand, Gavin, you give value to fact and research, but on the other hand you suggest that it's only with the addition of actual experience that an opinion will "at least become more valid."

Which is it, cuz you're kind of arguing for both even though you still maintain that OAP's opinion isn't entirely valid because they're lacking your third criteria.

I just think you have to narrow your thesis down to what it is you're REALLY saying, that opinions without firsthand knowledge of the topic being discussed, seemingly regardless of the topic since you mention examples from so many different areas, are less valid, if not invalid.

  


Ugh. I'll type this as slowly as I can.

The key word is MORE

Research, watching videos, etc=Add some validity to an opinion
Personal experience=Makes that opinion more valid
 
And no, reading/watching/research is NOT a substitute for first hand experience.  Do you disagree with that?

Had OAP not even seen the ZOOTV DVD, I'd give even less weight to his opinion.  As it is, since he's (presumably) seen the DVD, I'll give him that.  But will not give his opinion nearly the weight I would had he actually been to the concert.

Really, not that complicated.

Try again.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2011, 01:13:56 PM »
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You missed my point and seem to have overlooked the key statement of what I wrote: my opinion would be NO DIFFERENT if I hadn't seen the 360 Tour show, nor any less informed.



It may not have been different....but it certainly would be less informed.   Are you saying there's no more 'information' gleaned actually being at the show than watching it on youtube?  None?

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2011, 01:19:47 PM »
I'm merely standing up for OAP, whose post you flippantly dismissed earlier with the following:

"It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count)."

You've changed some of the lyrics since that attack, but you're still singing the same song.

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Offline JTBaby

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2011, 01:19:57 PM »
I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?




Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »
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I'm merely standing up for OAP, whose post you flippantly dismissed earlier with the following:

"It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count)."

You've changed some of the lyrics since that attack, but you're still singing the same song.

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Nope.  Not at all. I may have added to the lyrics (mainly to try to explain it to you), but haven't changed them.  And it wasn't an "attack".

The only one who's making this personal, "cuz", is you.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2011, 01:22:22 PM »
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2011, 01:23:13 PM »
All Because Of You...

Now..."zip it."


Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2011, 01:24:21 PM »
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All Because Of You...

Now..."zip it."



Ha!  I'm glad I'm not one of your students.  Not big on field trips I take it?

Offline JTBaby

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2011, 01:24:50 PM »
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?


Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2011, 01:25:17 PM »
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?

Offline JTBaby

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2011, 01:30:45 PM »
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?

Oh. i get it it. Haha. Good one.

Worth a nomination

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