Author Topic: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour  (Read 30120 times)

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The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2011, 02:25:29 PM »
Dude.  The sun is out here in Seattle finally.  What are you trying to do to me?  I've put those three new Star Wars movies out of my mind, to the point that I barely remember anything about them.  So in my mind, Jedi is the worst.  They killed BOBA FETT, man!
 
THEY...KILLED...BOBA...FETT.  I kept repeating this in disbelief to my brother after we saw the movie.  All he could do was nod, shake his head in disbelief himself, and say, "I know, dude.  I know."

I mentioned this on another thread:

Boy / October / War / Unforgettable Fire / Joshua Tree / Rattle & Hum = Star Wars
Achtung Baby / Zooropa / Passengers / Million Dollar Hotel / Pop = Empire Strikes Back
Spiderman = Return Of The Jedi
Behind / Bomb / Line = Phantom Menace / Clones / Etc.

Offline JTBaby

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2011, 02:26:20 PM »
The claw WAS big and bright and shiny tho


Offline u2chamonix

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2011, 02:40:39 PM »
I've seen 2-4 shows on every tour since JT. Including some so called legendary shows like Slane, NY, Milano to mention a few. However, the one i missed, Lovetown, is my favourite tour. Strange but true.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2011, 02:47:36 PM »
Comparing ZOO TV/AB & Zooropa to 360/NLOTH is like a Stones fan comparing Exile On Main Street/1972 North American tour to the Voodoo Lounge tour and album.




Offline The Unknown Caller

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2011, 03:02:27 PM »
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I get your point, but it's pretty easy to differentiate between the quality of an intense (of course knowingly designed) high-octane rock'n'roll show with the matinee feel good playtime U2 that got up on 360 stages.

I was too young for ZooTv and had no connections to see Popmart, but 360 (the first four legs at least) never lived up to even the modest excitement of the best of rock U2 Vertigo, and even less to the lovely and intense Elevation. It did nothing to distinguish itself until they started bringing on more surprises. I never bought into the Claw hype, most likely because of how little they utilized it as a possibly symbolic design, never made much of the cathedral of sound idea... Had they merged their music and the stage  better, with some cohesive deeper content, I'd very likely would've gone to see the tour. It didn't happen.


Maybe, from your perspective. But if it comes down to a real concept and idea, to merging stage with content, then PopMart would destroy ZooTV any day of the week, since PopMart had a FAR clearer and more unified concept (Not to mention a better idea) and stuck to it better. Frankly, ZooTV didn't have that much more of a unified tour concept than 360- and Vertigo and Elevation definitely didn't. PopMart is the closest U2 have come to a concept tour.

Setlists are always going to be down to individual opinion, but I  think that at each stage in its development- from No Line Tour to New Songs/No Line Tour to Zoo TV revisited, 360 has been excellent. I also think that in pure performance terms, U2 since last year have been at a level they haven't in over a decade- blowing past Vertigo and Elevation without trouble. You say that there was no excitement in the first four legs- I think that the most exciting U2 have been in a very long time was easily Leg 3 of 360, from opening the leg with no less than three (by common forum opinion) brand new songs including opening the gig with one, to the spontaneous debut of Every Breaking Wave without even a soundcheck, to Mothers of the Disappeared making its first European appearances ever.

In fact, from the surprises of leg 4 to songs debuting with nary a soundcheck (Out of Control) to random closers being added on the last leg, I think it's very fair to say that 360 has a degree of spontaneity that ZooTV could never even have dreamt of. That doesn't make it a better tour- it's not. But it's one of many reasons why I don't think the comparison is as one-sided as some people pretend.

The Professor

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2011, 03:04:22 PM »
Excellent point about PopMart, Unknown Caller.

satellitedog01

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2011, 03:12:05 PM »
The only reason I stayed onboard this long are the surprises they introduced. That was a good thing. I think if the whole second half of the tour would've looked like the  Americas legs this year I would be more content, as I found the last few dozen gigs pretty good musically.

I did not touch on Popmart since I think it was not as great musically as ZooTV (the stale setlist didn't help, even if the songs themselves were pretty awesome) and I do think ZooTV achieved enough of the concept of media overload and manipulation to be called succesful in execution. Even the JT songs were almost fresh (as opposed to  PM) and the new material was dynamite, and they took center stage. I don't see any motivation behind 360 to be honest, and it threw me off early on.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2011, 03:16:45 PM »
Zoo TV/Zooropa was all about the new music and as SatDog says, it was dynamite.

A hugely successful reinvention in terms of their stage presentation, sound, image, and music.



Offline The Unknown Caller

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »
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The only reason I stayed onboard this long are the surprises they introduced. That was a good thing. I think if the whole second half of the tour would've looked like the  Americas legs this year I would be more content, as I found the last few dozen gigs pretty good musically.

But see, I don' follow the logic there. BY all accounts, the final leg this year has been *great*, but it has also been largely unsurprising- especially compared to the three previous legs. The South American leg, absolutely, but I wouldn't rank the debut of 'The Fly' and a setlist reshuffle to frontload the AB songs as more surprising than the debuts of Love Rescue Me, Scarlet, AIWIY and the R&H sets in Australasia, or six brand new songs, I Will Follow's debut and the return of Pride, Bad, Angel of Harlem and NYD in Europe.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2011, 03:19:50 PM »
Professor, you asked me to tell you (among other things) my "opinion of how the (War) tour ranks compared to U2's other tours; ideas about the significance of the tour in relation to U2's career trajectory; ideas about the possible themes and ideas explored during the tour's live shows."  Sounds like a term paper, and I gave up dong those after I got my Phd. :)

In any event, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've seen in those videos.  A young, idealistic band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say where the War tour "ranks" in comparison to the other tours.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but to me it's comparing apples and oranges...I wasn't there.  Ask me to compare the shows I've actually seen in person to each other, starting with TUF...that I can answer authoritatively. I'm sorry, I just can't compare some video I've seen to a live show I was actually at.  And, while I certainly could tell you something about what I think the tour means in relation to U2's "career trajectory" and the "ideas explored", this is  hardly relevant to how how much I would have enjoyed the War show had I been there, or how I would compare it to the shows I've actually been to.  A shows relative "importance" in U2 history has zero impact on my enjoyment of the show.

Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)

« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:06:57 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

satellitedog01

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2011, 03:33:31 PM »
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But see, I don' follow the logic there. BY all accounts, the final leg this year has been *great*, but it has also been largely unsurprising- especially compared to the three previous legs. The South American leg, absolutely, but I wouldn't rank the debut of 'The Fly' and a setlist reshuffle to frontload the AB songs as more surprising than the debuts of Love Rescue Me, Scarlet, AIWIY and the R&H sets in Australasia, or six brand new songs, I Will Follow's debut and the return of Pride, Bad, Angel of Harlem and NYD in Europe.

First, I included the third leg surprises as the reason I kept following the tour, secondly Zooropa was probably more surprising to me than the acoustic songs they never managed to play live as a band (that actually pisses me off), or Stingray or even Mercy all together.

As for the AB songs, I would listen to those any day before  the five off ATYCLB. So yeah that was a foreseeable twist after news of the reissues, but it works well. The setlist lacked focus for a long time, and the AB set provides a serviceable one.

Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2011, 03:41:15 PM »
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I've seen 2-4 shows on every tour since JT. Including some so called legendary shows like Slane, NY, Milano to mention a few. However, the one i missed, Lovetown, is my favourite tour. Strange but true.

Yeah, Lovetown is the one tour I missed since TUF, and I would have loved to have seen that one.  The set list was a surprise every night, and I loved all the songs they were playing.  In the boots I've heard the band sounds loose, free and energized, like they've got the weight of TJT tour off their backs.  And then, of course, there's BB King.  Really wish I could have been there.

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2011, 05:04:56 PM »
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Professor, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've saw in those videos.  A young, raw band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say much beyond that, including whether the War tour was any "worse" or "better" than any of the shows I saw starting with The Unforgettable Fire.  I'm really not going to get into a larger discussion on the place of that tour in U2 history, because it's irrelevant to how I would have perceived and "liked" the show had I been there. I'm not trying to be facetious, I just really can't compare War to those shows I've actually seen in person.  I could tell you what my impressions of the videos I've seen are, but it wouldn't mean much because I wasn't there. 
 
Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)



sorry to drag this up again... it typed it all then noticed you are trying to let the issue go. dont want to delete all my efforts tho so here it is.......

mate i think you could say a lot more about the differences between the two tours if you looked into it. you're right that you can't gauge the emotional impact fully without being there but this doesnt even give you much info for the tour overall. what if the night you went to was far better or worse than the rest of the tour for whatever reason. what if you had seats way at the back of a big stadium? 

 theres so much which goes into most peoples considerations about which tour was better and the personal experience from one position, on one night, of a worldwide hundred(s) night multimedia tour, has weight but in my opinion not nearly enough to be able to say you can't say which is better unless you attended.

you're opinion is clearly different and you attach the majority of you're decision making about which tour is better to this experience. as i said i think most people have many other factors they are considering equally though so this experience is much, much less crucial to them in making a call.

and hey professor, you must get tired of being asked but what are you a professor of?


Offline Gavin Tuesday

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2011, 05:13:55 PM »
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Professor, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've saw in those videos.  A young, raw band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say much beyond that, including whether the War tour was any "worse" or "better" than any of the shows I saw starting with The Unforgettable Fire.  I'm really not going to get into a larger discussion on the place of that tour in U2 history, because it's irrelevant to how I would have perceived and "liked" the show had I been there. I'm not trying to be facetious, I just really can't compare War to those shows I've actually seen in person.  I could tell you what my impressions of the videos I've seen are, but it wouldn't mean much because I wasn't there.  
 
Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)



sorry to drag this up again... it typed it all then noticed you are trying to let the issue go. dont want to delete all my efforts tho so here it is.......

mate i think you could say a lot more about the differences between the two tours if you looked into it. you're right that you can't gauge the emotional impact fully without being there but this doesnt even give you much info for the tour overall. what if the night you went to was far better or worse than the rest of the tour for whatever reason. what if you had seats way at the back of a big stadium?  

 theres so much which goes into most peoples considerations about which tour was better and the personal experience from one position, on one night, of a worldwide hundred(s) night multimedia tour, has weight but in my opinion not nearly enough to be able to say you can't say which is better unless you attended.

you're opinion is clearly different and you attach the majority of you're decision making about which tour is better to this experience. as i said i think most people have many other factors they are considering equally though so this experience is much, much less crucial to them in making a call.

and hey professor, you must get tired of being asked but what are you a professor of?



Soapit, I can compare shows I've actually seen in person to each other, no problem. Ask me to rate the shows from TUF to 360 and I can do that (though with difficulty).
What I can't do is compare some grainy video of Under a Blood Red Sky or Rockplast and say it's better, or worse, than a show I actually attended. I just can't speak authoritatively about it, and I'm loathe to shoot my mouth off about a show I wasn't at.  I'm sure there are people who were at War and love it, and will tell you the video doesn't to justice to what they experienced.  So it's really not my place to say whether War is better, or worse, than anything I saw. I can compare 360 and ZOOTV, sure...I was at both those shows.  But all I can speak to about War is the videos I've seen.

It's not that I take merely the "emotional" experience of a show into account and nothing else.  But when someone came on here and said a show they attended was better than a show they didn't attend...that struck me as kind of odd.  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:26:12 PM by Gavin Tuesday »

Offline soapit

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Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2011, 05:23:29 PM »
i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.