Author Topic: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?  (Read 15825 times)

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Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2013, 04:27:52 PM »
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"Backs to the wall " ?????

Do we really believe Edge sipping Chardonnay in Malibu or Bono sipping Bordeaux in the South of France or adam enjoying a wee toke in jamaica or Larry scowling away in a pub drinking guinness while waiting for his next acting gig really feel their backs are against the wall ?

I didn't say that. I'm saying the album has to be great or they are f*****.

Why? The public didn't appear to like NLOTH but that didn't stop them from attending the 360 Tour in record numbers.

U2 could release whatever they want and still do well with live concerts regardless.

  NLOTH was the 7th biggest selling album of 2009, so it was one of the most popular albums of the year with the public. U2 can't release anything they want and except great numbers on tour as POP and POPMART showed.

There is not a scientific direct relationship between record sales and concert ticket sales

             There is in the sense that whenever an artist sells more albums, they sell more concert tickets. Rarely, if ever, do you find an artist that increases in album sales with their latest album, but see's a decline in concert ticket sales when compared with the previous album and tour for that artist.

           

Prince did with 3121 compared with his previous album, Musicology.

                No he didn't. 3121 did not sell as many copies as Musicology. For the example to work, 3121 would of had to of sold more than Musicology but then Prince see's a decline in ticket sales for the tour supporting 3121. Didn't Happen!

Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2013, 04:30:44 PM »
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Yes, but Bono has made it clear his definition of "greatness" is measured by getting on radio and being played in clubs. He's yearning for popularity he's simply not going to get unless he's prepared to compromise the band's musical integrity to unrecognizable levels.

Not really.  Achtung Baby was extremely popular and they didn't compromise the band's musical integrity making it.

The reality is that if U2 make a truly great album again, it like as not will get played a lot on the radio.  I don't know about clubs though.

             There are a group of fans that left the band with Achtung Baby. Claimed the band soldout. You find these people every now and then when they say "U2 has not done anything good since the Joshua Tree". This was not a very large group, but it was there. Whenever there is a change in U2's music direction there is always a segment of U2 fans that is disappointed and some of them stop being fans.

Sure, they lost some fans and they gained some fans with AB.  They sold more tickets for Zoo TV than for TJT tour, though.

            Well, to be fair to the Joshua Tree tour, when it first started in April 1987, U2 were not yet the biggest band in the world. That did not completely happen until the summer and the fall of 1987. So Joshua Tree Tour had a much larger hill to climb in that respect than ZOO TV.

Of course.  And they had lots of time to build up their reputation and fanbase to have a hugely successful tour with 360 - the culmination of thirty years of music, which was the reason why so many went to see the tour.  Nostalgia.

            Again, where was the nostalgia on the POPMART tour? Career success, a long time in the industry, Nostalgia were all there in 1997, but it did not prevent the relatively low ticket sales for POPMART.

           Again the difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure leading to much lower ticket sales. NLOTH was a success leading to much higher ticket sales.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2013, 04:30:54 PM »
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"Backs to the wall " ?????

Do we really believe Edge sipping Chardonnay in Malibu or Bono sipping Bordeaux in the South of France or adam enjoying a wee toke in jamaica or Larry scowling away in a pub drinking guinness while waiting for his next acting gig really feel their backs are against the wall ?

I didn't say that. I'm saying the album has to be great or they are f*****.

Why? The public didn't appear to like NLOTH but that didn't stop them from attending the 360 Tour in record numbers.

U2 could release whatever they want and still do well with live concerts regardless.

  NLOTH was the 7th biggest selling album of 2009, so it was one of the most popular albums of the year with the public. U2 can't release anything they want and except great numbers on tour as POP and POPMART showed.

There is not a scientific direct relationship between record sales and concert ticket sales

             There is in the sense that whenever an artist sells more albums, they sell more concert tickets. Rarely, if ever, do you find an artist that increases in album sales with their latest album, but see's a decline in concert ticket sales when compared with the previous album and tour for that artist.

           

Prince did with 3121 compared with his previous album, Musicology.

                No he didn't. 3121 did not sell as many copies as Musicology. For the example to work, 3121 would of had to of sold more than Musicology but then Prince see's a decline in ticket sales for the tour supporting 3121. Didn't Happen!

Oh yes he did.  3121 sold more copies and was a chart hit based on sales.  Musicology was a giveaway with each concert ticket.  However, he played to FAR fewer people on the 3121 residency in Vegas than he did on the earlier Musicology tour in 2004 - his most well-attended North American tour since Purple Rain.

 

Offline _acrobat

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2013, 04:33:31 PM »
The revenge of the bold text!

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2013, 04:35:50 PM »
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Yes, but Bono has made it clear his definition of "greatness" is measured by getting on radio and being played in clubs. He's yearning for popularity he's simply not going to get unless he's prepared to compromise the band's musical integrity to unrecognizable levels.

Not really.  Achtung Baby was extremely popular and they didn't compromise the band's musical integrity making it.

The reality is that if U2 make a truly great album again, it like as not will get played a lot on the radio.  I don't know about clubs though.

             There are a group of fans that left the band with Achtung Baby. Claimed the band soldout. You find these people every now and then when they say "U2 has not done anything good since the Joshua Tree". This was not a very large group, but it was there. Whenever there is a change in U2's music direction there is always a segment of U2 fans that is disappointed and some of them stop being fans.

Sure, they lost some fans and they gained some fans with AB.  They sold more tickets for Zoo TV than for TJT tour, though.

            Well, to be fair to the Joshua Tree tour, when it first started in April 1987, U2 were not yet the biggest band in the world. That did not completely happen until the summer and the fall of 1987. So Joshua Tree Tour had a much larger hill to climb in that respect than ZOO TV.

Of course.  And they had lots of time to build up their reputation and fanbase to have a hugely successful tour with 360 - the culmination of thirty years of music, which was the reason why so many went to see the tour.  Nostalgia.

            Again, where was the nostalgia on the POPMART tour? Career success, a long time in the industry, Nostalgia were all there in 1997, but it did not prevent the relatively low ticket sales for POPMART.

           Again the difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure leading to much lower ticket sales. NLOTH was a success leading to much higher ticket sales.

There was less nostalgia in 1997 than in 2009-2011 and 360 benefited from all the fans gained from the earlier 00s albums.

PopMart was relatively less successful because they stylistically and thematically linked the stage show with an album that many U2 fans didn't quite get - especially, but not exclusively, American fans.  360 was a much more neutral production.




Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2013, 04:38:17 PM »
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FACT is she hasn't played arenas. Whether or not you THINK she would have is irrelevant.

FACT is all those people outselling U2 are not even close in ticket sales for tours.

FACT is there is no correlation these days between album sales and concert sales.

Some people like Springsteen or U2 could play massive tours without even releasing an album and people selling huge numbers of albums could struggle to put bums in seats.

            First, there are VERY FEW people that outsell U2 when it comes to sales of a new album.

           SECOND, I have already mentioned multiple times that artist like Mariah Carey sell lots of albums but not lots of concert tickets. Thats NOT the corelation between album and ticket sales I'm talking about.

          The corelation I speak of has to do with the individual artist and how well he does from tour to tour. That particular artist will do better on the next tour if the album its supporting is more successful, relatively, than the previous one.

          Yes, there is demand for veteran artist out there regardless of whether they release an album. But when artist does not release new material, the demand for that artist in concert typically shrinks.

          Sting on his last tour promoting an album of new songs played in arena's all over the world. Now Sting has not released an album in almost ten years. He is now primarily playing in 4,000 seat theaters instead of 20,000 seat arena's. Albums and new songs do have an impact!

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2013, 04:41:04 PM »
Sting could do an arena tour any time he likes, and sell-out NOSTALGIA.

He just chooses to play theatres.  Like Prince did on his amazing One Nite Alone tour in 2002. 


Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2013, 04:43:22 PM »
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Album sales can't always matter much because NLOTH sold fewer than Pop.

           Thats only because the 1997 market place was very different to the 2009 market place. POP's sales would have made it the #1 album of 2009, but back in 1997 it was only the #50 album in the USA and did not make the top 20 worldwide. You can't make unit to unit comparisons of albums released in the last 5 years to albums released back in 2001 and earlier. You have to adjust for the different markets they were released into.

We donít know how many people have heard the music from NLOTH since there isnít an illegal download chart.  For all we know, the only people to have heard NLOTH are those that bought a copy.  However, we do know that, for example, 6 million people listened to Pop.

              Well, then going by that logic 70% of people no longer listen to music. Why, because total albums sold in 2012 was 70% less than the year 2000. If your talking million selling albums, it was 90% less!

             Everyone still listens to music, its just that people obtain it for free. The way you compare 1997 to 2009 is how each album did relative to other albums in the same market. POP finished at #50 in the United States in 1997. Compare that to the #22 finish for NLOTH in 2009. POP did not make the top 20 best selling albums of 1997. Compare that to the #7 finish for NLOTH in 2009.

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2013, 04:48:53 PM »
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Album sales can't always matter much because NLOTH sold fewer than Pop.

           Thats only because the 1997 market place was very different to the 2009 market place. POP's sales would have made it the #1 album of 2009, but back in 1997 it was only the #50 album in the USA and did not make the top 20 worldwide. You can't make unit to unit comparisons of albums released in the last 5 years to albums released back in 2001 and earlier. You have to adjust for the different markets they were released into.

We donít know how many people have heard the music from NLOTH since there isnít an illegal download chart.  For all we know, the only people to have heard NLOTH are those that bought a copy.  However, we do know that, for example, 6 million people listened to Pop.

              Well, then going by that logic 70% of people no longer listen to music. Why, because total albums sold in 2012 was 70% less than the year 2000. If your talking million selling albums, it was 90% less!

             Everyone still listens to music, its just that people obtain it for free. The way you compare 1997 to 2009 is how each album did relative to other albums in the same market. POP finished at #50 in the United States in 1997. Compare that to the #22 finish for NLOTH in 2009. POP did not make the top 20 best selling albums of 1997. Compare that to the #7 finish for NLOTH in 2009.

Listening to music for free doesn't equal sales, or a certifiable commitment to the music that someone actually paying for an album expresses.  Many of the people who might have listened to NLOTH for free may have thought: "that's crap that is; I wouldn't pay to go see that at a concert."

 

Offline Johnny Feathers

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2013, 04:50:26 PM »
Hmmm, THIS looks like a debate I've seen before.....

Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2013, 05:08:02 PM »
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"Backs to the wall " ?????

Do we really believe Edge sipping Chardonnay in Malibu or Bono sipping Bordeaux in the South of France or adam enjoying a wee toke in jamaica or Larry scowling away in a pub drinking guinness while waiting for his next acting gig really feel their backs are against the wall ?

I didn't say that. I'm saying the album has to be great or they are f*****.

Why? The public didn't appear to like NLOTH but that didn't stop them from attending the 360 Tour in record numbers.

U2 could release whatever they want and still do well with live concerts regardless.

  NLOTH was the 7th biggest selling album of 2009, so it was one of the most popular albums of the year with the public. U2 can't release anything they want and except great numbers on tour as POP and POPMART showed.

There is not a scientific direct relationship between record sales and concert ticket sales

             There is in the sense that whenever an artist sells more albums, they sell more concert tickets. Rarely, if ever, do you find an artist that increases in album sales with their latest album, but see's a decline in concert ticket sales when compared with the previous album and tour for that artist.

           

Prince did with 3121 compared with his previous album, Musicology.

                No he didn't. 3121 did not sell as many copies as Musicology. For the example to work, 3121 would of had to of sold more than Musicology but then Prince see's a decline in ticket sales for the tour supporting 3121. Didn't Happen!

Oh yes he did.  3121 sold more copies and was a chart hit based on sales.  Musicology was a giveaway with each concert ticket.  However, he played to FAR fewer people on the 3121 residency in Vegas than he did on the earlier Musicology tour in 2004 - his most well-attended North American tour since Purple Rain.

Prince's Musicology GLOBAL SALES in 2004 - 2,781,000 finished on the global chart at #22

Prince's 3121 GLOBAL SALES in 2006 - 808,000 failed to reach the top 40 of the year end global chart

Musicology peak chart position in countries around the world:
United States #3
Australia #19
Austria #4
Canada #11
Germany #4
Netherlands #3
Norway #2
Sweden #6
Switzerland #2
United Kingdom #3
New Zealand #25

                    Musicology was a chart hit as well. A much bigger one in fact when you account for longevity on the charts that year. 3121 by contrast fail like a rock. It was out of the global weekly top 40 after just six weeks.

               So no, that example does not fit at all because Musicology has more than triple the sales of 3121.

Offline bethere

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2013, 05:13:22 PM »
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Yes, but Bono has made it clear his definition of "greatness" is measured by getting on radio and being played in clubs. He's yearning for popularity he's simply not going to get unless he's prepared to compromise the band's musical integrity to unrecognizable levels.

Not really.  Achtung Baby was extremely popular and they didn't compromise the band's musical integrity making it.

The reality is that if U2 make a truly great album again, it like as not will get played a lot on the radio.  I don't know about clubs though.

             There are a group of fans that left the band with Achtung Baby. Claimed the band soldout. You find these people every now and then when they say "U2 has not done anything good since the Joshua Tree". This was not a very large group, but it was there. Whenever there is a change in U2's music direction there is always a segment of U2 fans that is disappointed and some of them stop being fans.

Sure, they lost some fans and they gained some fans with AB.  They sold more tickets for Zoo TV than for TJT tour, though.

            Well, to be fair to the Joshua Tree tour, when it first started in April 1987, U2 were not yet the biggest band in the world. That did not completely happen until the summer and the fall of 1987. So Joshua Tree Tour had a much larger hill to climb in that respect than ZOO TV.

Of course.  And they had lots of time to build up their reputation and fanbase to have a hugely successful tour with 360 - the culmination of thirty years of music, which was the reason why so many went to see the tour.  Nostalgia.

            Again, where was the nostalgia on the POPMART tour? Career success, a long time in the industry, Nostalgia were all there in 1997, but it did not prevent the relatively low ticket sales for POPMART.

           Again the difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure leading to much lower ticket sales. NLOTH was a success leading to much higher ticket sales.

There was less nostalgia in 1997 than in 2009-2011 and 360 benefited from all the fans gained from the earlier 00s albums.

PopMart was relatively less successful because they stylistically and thematically linked the stage show with an album that many U2 fans didn't quite get - especially, but not exclusively, American fans.  360 was a much more neutral production.

             There is no evidence that there was any less nostalgia in 1997 than in 2009-2011. You could even argue that there was more in 1997, but that does not automatically translate into ticket sales.

              You could say POPMART benefited from the all the fans gained during the Joshua Tree and ZOO TV era's. That did not prevent the relatively weak sales on POPMART.

           Again, the parallels are all there, the only difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure, while NLOTH was a success!

Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2013, 05:16:13 PM »
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"Backs to the wall " ?????

Do we really believe Edge sipping Chardonnay in Malibu or Bono sipping Bordeaux in the South of France or adam enjoying a wee toke in jamaica or Larry scowling away in a pub drinking guinness while waiting for his next acting gig really feel their backs are against the wall ?

I didn't say that. I'm saying the album has to be great or they are f*****.

Why? The public didn't appear to like NLOTH but that didn't stop them from attending the 360 Tour in record numbers.

U2 could release whatever they want and still do well with live concerts regardless.

  NLOTH was the 7th biggest selling album of 2009, so it was one of the most popular albums of the year with the public. U2 can't release anything they want and except great numbers on tour as POP and POPMART showed.

There is not a scientific direct relationship between record sales and concert ticket sales

             There is in the sense that whenever an artist sells more albums, they sell more concert tickets. Rarely, if ever, do you find an artist that increases in album sales with their latest album, but see's a decline in concert ticket sales when compared with the previous album and tour for that artist.

           

Prince did with 3121 compared with his previous album, Musicology.

                No he didn't. 3121 did not sell as many copies as Musicology. For the example to work, 3121 would of had to of sold more than Musicology but then Prince see's a decline in ticket sales for the tour supporting 3121. Didn't Happen!

Oh yes he did.  3121 sold more copies and was a chart hit based on sales.  Musicology was a giveaway with each concert ticket.  However, he played to FAR fewer people on the 3121 residency in Vegas than he did on the earlier Musicology tour in 2004 - his most well-attended North American tour since Purple Rain.

Prince's Musicology GLOBAL SALES in 2004 - 2,781,000 finished on the global chart at #22

Prince's 3121 GLOBAL SALES in 2006 - 808,000 failed to reach the top 40 of the year end global chart

Musicology peak chart position in countries around the world:
United States #3
Australia #19
Austria #4
Canada #11
Germany #4
Netherlands #3
Norway #2
Sweden #6
Switzerland #2
United Kingdom #3
New Zealand #25

                    Musicology was a chart hit as well. A much bigger one in fact when you account for longevity on the charts that year. 3121 by contrast fail like a rock. It was out of the global weekly top 40 after just six weeks.

               So no, that example does not fit at all because Musicology has more than triple the sales of 3121.

I'm not talking about global sales because I haven't mentioned a global tour.  In the US, 3121 actually sold more copies than Musicology and yet Prince played to FAR more people on the Musicology tour in the US than he did on the 3121 tour.  So that doesn't support your theory.  And the chart position of Musicology in the US was not based on actual sales of the album but because it was a giveaway with every Musicology tour concert ticket.

So, I'm afraid your time spent researching and cut and pasting was all in vain, again.


Offline JTBaby

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2013, 05:18:05 PM »
The next bt convinces anyone of anything will be his first.


Offline Tumbling Dice

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Re: Could U2's New Album Sell Less Then NLOTH ?
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2013, 05:19:57 PM »
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Yes, but Bono has made it clear his definition of "greatness" is measured by getting on radio and being played in clubs. He's yearning for popularity he's simply not going to get unless he's prepared to compromise the band's musical integrity to unrecognizable levels.

Not really.  Achtung Baby was extremely popular and they didn't compromise the band's musical integrity making it.

The reality is that if U2 make a truly great album again, it like as not will get played a lot on the radio.  I don't know about clubs though.

             There are a group of fans that left the band with Achtung Baby. Claimed the band soldout. You find these people every now and then when they say "U2 has not done anything good since the Joshua Tree". This was not a very large group, but it was there. Whenever there is a change in U2's music direction there is always a segment of U2 fans that is disappointed and some of them stop being fans.

Sure, they lost some fans and they gained some fans with AB.  They sold more tickets for Zoo TV than for TJT tour, though.

            Well, to be fair to the Joshua Tree tour, when it first started in April 1987, U2 were not yet the biggest band in the world. That did not completely happen until the summer and the fall of 1987. So Joshua Tree Tour had a much larger hill to climb in that respect than ZOO TV.

Of course.  And they had lots of time to build up their reputation and fanbase to have a hugely successful tour with 360 - the culmination of thirty years of music, which was the reason why so many went to see the tour.  Nostalgia.

            Again, where was the nostalgia on the POPMART tour? Career success, a long time in the industry, Nostalgia were all there in 1997, but it did not prevent the relatively low ticket sales for POPMART.

           Again the difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure leading to much lower ticket sales. NLOTH was a success leading to much higher ticket sales.

There was less nostalgia in 1997 than in 2009-2011 and 360 benefited from all the fans gained from the earlier 00s albums.

PopMart was relatively less successful because they stylistically and thematically linked the stage show with an album that many U2 fans didn't quite get - especially, but not exclusively, American fans.  360 was a much more neutral production.

             There is no evidence that there was any less nostalgia in 1997 than in 2009-2011. You could even argue that there was more in 1997, but that does not automatically translate into ticket sales.

Common sense.  There was more nostalgia in 2009-2011 because there was more to be nostalgic about.

Quote
              You could say POPMART benefited from the all the fans gained during the Joshua Tree and ZOO TV era's. That did not prevent the relatively weak sales on POPMART.

There were even more fans gained by 2009.

Quote
           Again, the parallels are all there, the only difference is the album each tour was supporting. POP was a relative failure, while NLOTH was a success!

It doesn't matter how many times you write it, but NLOTH was a commercial failure by U2's standards.