Author Topic: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?  (Read 14301 times)

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Offline xy

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2017, 03:13:51 AM »
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

To me I always thought it's like this :

Religious man : I believe.

Atheist : I don't believe.

Agnostic : I don't know (because I can't prove it either way)

Offline soloyan

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Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2017, 03:24:25 AM »
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Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.

Good post. I think it all comes down to wether you believe there is an agenda in the universe. As an atheist, I believe there isn't. "People are significance junkies" to quote Carl Sagan.

I think Bono's wife Ali once said "I wouldn't want to live in a world without God". I think it sums up Sagan's quote. Don't get me wrong, I respect Ali's choice. Because it's her personal choice. I'm not judging that. I'm mean her choice is as good as mine, as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 03:56:58 AM by soloyan »

Offline ElectricalVoice

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2017, 05:23:25 AM »
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 06:31:16 AM by ElectricalVoice »

Offline Johnny Feathers

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2017, 07:16:21 AM »
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)

Thanks.  The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

Offline The Exile

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2017, 11:43:14 AM »
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

Offline Johnny Feathers

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2017, 01:28:12 PM »
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

Well, we do sometimes hit a bar...

Offline The Exile

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2017, 02:05:04 PM »
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

Well, we do sometimes hit a bar...

My kind of church....

Offline ElectricalVoice

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2017, 02:12:23 PM »
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No. Everyone are in fact born an atheist.

(And therein lies the problem with religion.)
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)

Thanks.  The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

No. Everyone are in fact born as atheists. And therein lies the problem with religion.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 03:48:03 AM by ElectricalVoice »

Offline Blueyedboy

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2017, 10:56:11 PM »
I think the "problem" with religion is that each one is taught in a manner that denounces other religions. The elephant in the room is that believers are atheistic in that they believe in only one more God than a non believer does.

Great discussion so far. We're awesome at self regulating hey. Mods, put your feet up and relax, we've got this.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 02:41:53 PM by Blueyedboy »

Offline soloyan

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2017, 01:11:26 AM »
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.

Offline DGordon1

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2017, 01:22:44 AM »
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.

This surprises me. For my money (can only speak for the UK), the trend is definitely heading towards a more secular society overall.

Offline soloyan

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2017, 01:58:29 AM »
In France it's been one of the topics of the presidential election debate : that religious groups are very vocal and active, hence they obtain certain things and occupy the media eye. According to recent polls, the majority of the people, 60%, are not affiliated to any religion. But since they don't gather under any flag, the "religion less" people do not appear in the debate as such. Yet.

I'm not sure of the trend in terms of secularism but I can see the visibility of religious signs increase. More and more people define themselves in terms of religion first and foremost. That doesn't mean there are more of them.


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Offline ElectricalVoice

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2017, 04:05:51 AM »
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For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.

I do not "gather" with other atheists, but I can understand the need and why it is important. In fact, in many places in the world it is not acceptable to be an atheist (in extreme cases you can be killed). Even in some places in the western world, being an atheist might be very problematic. Many people do not even admit that they do not believe. That can be towards parents, family, friends, co-workers, voters etc.

For me it is important to get the point across about what it means to be an atheist. It doesn't necessarily mean a hate towards a god or that you dislike religious people or religion at all. (How can you hate something that doesn't exist? Hating God would make you a theist. Hating religious people wouldn't make you an atheist, it would just make you an idiot. A dislike for religion, which I admittedly possess, is something else.) And it certainly does not mean an active belief that no gods exist. Some do all this, but most do not (I think most atheists are apatheists aswell). One simply does not believe. And that is most often not a choice, but just the way it is. In my case, I find no evidence whatsoever, so it would be a total intellectual collapse and a betrayal towards myself if I said I believe (just to be sure not to go to hell, because it makes me feel good or for some other irrelevant reason). Furthermore, to me there are other and better explanations for what we see around us than what I consider to be myths and pure fantasy.

I love U2, and I have no problems with their christianity. I can also enjoy their religion-inspired lyrics. Often I also find other meanings than the religious interpretations of their lyrics. Sometimes I find meaning in the religious interpretations, also. I don't believe in the main story behind them, but they fall into the same category as any other poem or lyric and fantasy that I find beautiful.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 08:55:50 AM by ElectricalVoice »

Offline Johnny Feathers

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2017, 06:33:31 AM »
I'd also add: there has yet to be an open atheist elected president of the US.  Consider the controversy when Kennedy was the first Catholic elected.  For all of the reasons I opposed Trump, I was hopeful that he would have stood up for his...let's say, non-religious...perspective.  Alas, he didn't.  To be clear, I don't really believe he IS religious, and he could possibly be an atheist.  But even today, it's political suicide to admit as much.

I believe we'll certainly see a woman president, maybe even a gay or Muslim president, before we ever see an openly atheist one.

Offline MattD

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Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2017, 06:13:01 PM »
To be an atheist U2 fan is in no way a contradiction of sorts. After all, U2 are no Bible bashing Christian rock band and offer a much more complex account of religiosity and faith often highlighting the doubts of one's own spiritual quest.

Bono's faith is exploited in the music as metaphors that offer clarity to his own personal troubles. This is one of the main reasons why I love U2 as they often highlight the tensions between religion, spirituality and the harsh realities of the world.

I'm not religious in anyway, so it's fascinating to hear the doubts and insecurities of a religious individual. It helps you gain an understanding and sense of empathy towards those of faith which, in a society where religion is almost becoming a taboo, provides a more complex view on religion as opposed to the increasingly reductivist and inane belief amongst many that suggests anyone of faith is a lunatic.