Author Topic: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?  (Read 785 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline laoghaire

  • Staring at the Sun
  • **
  • Posts: 1,298
  • I love the peaceful life.
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 06:50:08 PM »
He's honest about being a bigmouth. (Several times).

He's honest about his arrival into dinosaur status.

He's honest about not being home enough.

He's honest about letting stuff go to his head.

He's honest about his desire for worldly things.

He's honest that he has a villa with a pleasant view on the same Mediterranean that people are dying on/in.

He's honest about being scared.

He's honest that a lot of it is just an act.

He's honest about being mad at God.

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 07:19:15 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He's honest about being a bigmouth. (Several times).

He's honest about his arrival into dinosaur status.

He's honest about not being home enough.

He's honest about letting stuff go to his head.

He's honest about his desire for worldly things.

He's honest that he has a villa with a pleasant view on the same Mediterranean that people are dying on/in.

He's honest about being scared.

He's honest that a lot of it is just an act.

He's honest about being mad at God.
So now I’m back where we started.  He’s been being honest about all these things for the last 30+ years.  The same things.  SOE is not challenging me with new ways to think of things.  Its basically just Bono talking about Bono and what a humble guy he is and how he almost died.

Don’t let me bug ‘ya.  I just don’t get it and I’m really curious what is y’all find compelling about these lyrics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline laoghaire

  • Staring at the Sun
  • **
  • Posts: 1,298
  • I love the peaceful life.
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2018, 08:19:30 PM »
All right, quote me chapter and verse for each of those. I'll give you a couple, like being angry with God and being scared. But when did he say he was now a dinosaur or that he sees the staggering gap between his South of France vacations and the struggle for survival others face? When did he admit his act or that he's a bigmouth?

Honestly I don't really care anyway because struggles with God and humanity, fierce political stances on the side of love, expressions of optimism in the face of adversity, and musings on non-romantic relationships is what I signed up for. Why is it only a problem now? As you say, all the albums cover that, so why weren't you sick of it by their sixth?

And why demand something no artist does? Artists can and do stretch their wings but they are all trying to say a core set of things, whether it was Degas and a particular human form of grace, or Benjamin Franklin and his strivings to be a disciplined and moral person in thought and action, or Roger Waters and his fight against exploitation - these are all their body of work, their oerve. They craft it and hone it. When the message resonates with people they have a following. I'm not interested in Bono's golf game, don't want lovey-dovey crap, don't want advice on how to pick up babes, and I don't want him to shut up about the world or even to stop pi**ing people off.

That's Bono, man.

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2018, 09:02:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All right, quote me chapter and verse for each of those. I'll give you a couple, like being angry with God and being scared. But when did he say he was now a dinosaur or that he sees the staggering gap between his South of France vacations and the struggle for survival others face? When did he admit his act or that he's a bigmouth?

Honestly I don't really care anyway because struggles with God and humanity, fierce political stances on the side of love, expressions of optimism in the face of adversity, and musings on non-romantic relationships is what I signed up for. Why is it only a problem now? As you say, all the albums cover that, so why weren't you sick of it by their sixth?

And why demand something no artist does? Artists can and do stretch their wings but they are all trying to say a core set of things, whether it was Degas and a particular human form of grace, or Benjamin Franklin and his strivings to be a disciplined and moral person in thought and action, or Roger Waters and his fight against exploitation - these are all their body of work, their oerve. They craft it and hone it. When the message resonates with people they have a following. I'm not interested in Bono's golf game, don't want lovey-dovey crap, don't want advice on how to pick up babes, and I don't want him to shut up about the world or even to stop pi**ing people off.

That's Bono, man.
So I admit, and I think I’ve said it before, that maybe I just finally got bored with U2.  I can’t deny that it might be that simple.  But yeah ALL of this he’s said before.  For years he’s talked about meglomania and his huge ego and needing the cheers of 30k people every night and “stand up to rockstars and be careful of small men with big ideas.”

France vacation home?  How about “you get so guilty got so much for so little and then you learn to like the way it feels”.   Playboy Mansion...similar theme.

Angry with God?  Read his preface to the Psalms from 20 years ago.  Ever hear Wake Up Deadman from Pop?  “Jesus, were you just around the corner, did you think to try and warn her, or were you working on something new.”  “Jesus can you take the time to throw a drowning man a line?”  “Jesus in the song you wrote, the lines are sticking in my throat”.

A bajillion interviews about his big mouth....geez, maybe I just way overexposed myself to U2.  I think that is it.  Didn’t you say you took a break and missed several albums?  Is that the difference?  Is it that simple?

Okay the dinosaur thing is new but that’s not so much honesty, just obvious.  We all know he’s pushing 60.  Big deal, we all get old....he’s awful “ageist” don’t you think (ha, couldn’t resist that).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline laoghaire

  • Staring at the Sun
  • **
  • Posts: 1,298
  • I love the peaceful life.
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2018, 09:03:18 PM »
I had to come back to the "humble guy" part because lol. I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not (my money is on Yes) but either way, I can't say he's humble... and yet I can't say he hasn't made a very impressive and sincere effort toward it.

80s Bono
Filled with self doubt yet a tanker truckload of confidence and dare I say arrogance to get up on stage and fight and bleed. Out of the box, Bono's ambition and hubris is significant. He boxes out of his weight class until he finally makes weight at JT. Out of the box, Bono is not humble. By R&H he has reached Maximum Ego and starts to float away.

90s Bono
Still has his heart on his sleeve but armors it with leather and Elvis grease. Maximum Ego retained and humility nowhere in sight, but he tries for the first time to not take himself quite so seriously. Required level for next step.

00s Bono
Maximum Ego initially entirely intact but by end of decade ego is 1% smaller. While 90s Bono didn't take the not taking himself too seriously too seriously, 00s Bono took it a little more seriously. (PM me with complaints about that sentence and I'll make sure the complaints get all the attention they deserve). Bono becomes less a cartoon of himself. Humility still elusive.

10s Bono
Bono Humility Expansion Pack is installed sometime this decade, with previous decades allowing him to level up to the point that he wants to. Does it come naturally to him? Not really. Is it authentic? Well, some people say faith is a choice. I think humility might be similar. You prioritize it. You practice it. You train your thought that way and remind yourself to be grateful.

So maybe the new aspect you are looking for is this exploration of humility, as foreign as it may be for him. You may doubt his authenticity, but ask yourself, do you think he's really trying? Is he sincere in his efforts, at least, even if he doesn't wear it naturally?

I'm running on days of crap sleep and I'll probably be horrified by this jumble in the morning.

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 09:25:16 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I had to come back to the "humble guy" part because lol. I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not (my money is on Yes) but either way, I can't say he's humble... and yet I can't say he hasn't made a very impressive and sincere effort toward it.

80s Bono
Filled with self doubt yet a tanker truckload of confidence and dare I say arrogance to get up on stage and fight and bleed. Out of the box, Bono's ambition and hubris is significant. He boxes out of his weight class until he finally makes weight at JT. Out of the box, Bono is not humble. By R&H he has reached Maximum Ego and starts to float away.

90s Bono
Still has his heart on his sleeve but armors it with leather and Elvis grease. Maximum Ego retained and humility nowhere in sight, but he tries for the first time to not take himself quite so seriously. Required level for next step.

00s Bono
Maximum Ego initially entirely intact but by end of decade ego is 1% smaller. While 90s Bono didn't take the not taking himself too seriously too seriously, 00s Bono took it a little more seriously. (PM me with complaints about that sentence and I'll make sure the complaints get all the attention they deserve). Bono becomes less a cartoon of himself. Humility still elusive.

10s Bono
Bono Humility Expansion Pack is installed sometime this decade, with previous decades allowing him to level up to the point that he wants to. Does it come naturally to him? Not really. Is it authentic? Well, some people say faith is a choice. I think humility might be similar. You prioritize it. You practice it. You train your thought that way and remind yourself to be grateful.

So maybe the new aspect you are looking for is this exploration of humility, as foreign as it may be for him. You may doubt his authenticity, but ask yourself, do you think he's really trying? Is he sincere in his efforts, at least, even if he doesn't wear it naturally?

I'm running on days of crap sleep and I'll probably be horrified by this jumble in the morning.
No, I think he is humble and always has been.  He’s playing a role with the rockstar thing.  I do think he’s authentic.  Not perfect obviously, but authentic.

I’m not interested in hearing anything more about Bono from Bono.  I think he’s very into self-reflection and that’s what’s coming out...and out...and out. 

As a patron of his art, I’m looking for the kind of philosophical and spiritual exploration we got on Pop and NLOTH or the impressionist imagery we got on UF.  Stick a fork in the autobiographical.  Its done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:32:14 PM by Tortuga »

Offline BONO31

  • Stateless
  • *
  • Posts: 122
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 12:52:08 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Okay the dinosaur thing is new but that’s not so much honesty, just obvious.  We all know he’s pushing 60.  Big deal, we all get old....he’s awful “ageist” don’t you think (ha, couldn’t resist that).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But all the album is about the dinosaur thing, the contradiction between being a rockstar and growing old
There's a lot of new themes on "Songs of Experience:
- the contradiction between being a rockstar and growing old (The Blackout/The Showman/The little things...)
- legacy to the next generation (Get out of your own way/Love is bigger than anything in its way/13/American Soul...)
- near death experience (Lights of Home/Love is all we have left...)
- frustration and incapacity due to getting older (Showman/Summer of Love/Get out of your own way/Love is Bigger than anything in its way/13...)

And I'm sure there're lot more new themes ;)

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2018, 05:51:46 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Okay the dinosaur thing is new but that’s not so much honesty, just obvious.  We all know he’s pushing 60.  Big deal, we all get old....he’s awful “ageist” don’t you think (ha, couldn’t resist that).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But all the album is about the dinosaur thing, the contradiction between being a rockstar and growing old
There's a lot of new themes on "Songs of Experience:
- the contradiction between being a rockstar and growing old (The Blackout/The Showman/The little things...)
- legacy to the next generation (Get out of your own way/Love is bigger than anything in its way/13/American Soul...)
- near death experience (Lights of Home/Love is all we have left...)
- frustration and incapacity due to getting older (Showman/Summer of Love/Get out of your own way/Love is Bigger than anything in its way/13...)

And I'm sure there're lot more new themes ;)

That’s really all one theme.  Death and aging.  I just don’t feel like any of that is new.  Death is certainly not new.  Legacy and the new generation was covered on ATYCLB (“the last of the rock stars, when hip hop drove the big cars”).  Even the title track of ATYCLB and the lyrics of Walk On were informed by contemplation of eventual death.  One Step Closer dealt with aging and decline and upcoming death:

“I can't go forward, I can't turn back
Can't see the future
It's getting away from me
I just watch the tail lights glowing”

The title came from a conversation with Noel Gallagher telling Bono that his  dad was one step closer to knowing about God....that he would know at death.

I guess if what you’re saying is we haven’t had a whole album about death and decline then that’s right.  (Although I don’t think that’s the whole SOE album.) And its definitely fair to say that its a topic that bores me, whether they had barely touched on it or already done it to death (pun!).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline shineinthesummernight

  • Child of Grace
  • **
  • Posts: 1,772
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2018, 05:03:37 PM »
I think you're probably just sick of U2, in which case it may be time to turn to another artist who currently speaks to you.

Offline apoed

  • Babyface
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2018, 07:21:37 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That’s really all one theme.  Death and aging.  I just don’t feel like any of that is new.  Death is certainly not new.  Legacy and the new generation was covered on ATYCLB (“the last of the rock stars, when hip hop drove the big cars”).  Even the title track of ATYCLB and the lyrics of Walk On were informed by contemplation of eventual death.  One Step Closer dealt with aging and decline and upcoming death:

I agree that U2 has explored the theme of mortality in a lot of their earlier works, but in the past, I feel like it was an exploration guided by the death of another (Bono's mother in the early years and his father in the 2000s).  I feel like SOE was the first album where you can clearly see that he's thinking about his own death, not in an almost abstract sense like in "A Day Without Me", but as something that could literally happen to him as he's writing the lyrics of the album.  _That_ is different from anything they've done before, and to me is very authentic, as it's believable that a 55+ year-old man with a near-death experience under his belt would naturally be thinking about this kind of thing.  And as someone who is myself now in his 40s with children of his own, this kind of rumination about legacy and so forth really resonates with me too, because I'm beginning to understand on a gut level that I'm not going to be around forever, either.  Sure, even at the age of 7, I knew I was going to die someday, but when you're young, you kind of brush it off to the side and think, "Well, I still don't have to worry about that for a little while," and that feeling can literally last for a few decades.  But once you hit middle age or older, death starts to seem more immediate, so you can't help but feel differently about it, even if you've considered the topic in the past. 

That's my two cents, anyway...

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2018, 08:18:03 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think you're probably just sick of U2, in which case it may be time to turn to another artist who currently speaks to you.
I think that is mostly the case but I also think if they would change gears they could be interesting to me again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Tortuga

  • Intellectual Tortoise
  • *
  • Posts: 417
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2018, 08:22:27 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That’s really all one theme.  Death and aging.  I just don’t feel like any of that is new.  Death is certainly not new.  Legacy and the new generation was covered on ATYCLB (“the last of the rock stars, when hip hop drove the big cars”).  Even the title track of ATYCLB and the lyrics of Walk On were informed by contemplation of eventual death.  One Step Closer dealt with aging and decline and upcoming death:

I agree that U2 has explored the theme of mortality in a lot of their earlier works, but in the past, I feel like it was an exploration guided by the death of another (Bono's mother in the early years and his father in the 2000s).  I feel like SOE was the first album where you can clearly see that he's thinking about his own death, not in an almost abstract sense like in "A Day Without Me", but as something that could literally happen to him as he's writing the lyrics of the album.  _That_ is different from anything they've done before, and to me is very authentic, as it's believable that a 55+ year-old man with a near-death experience under his belt would naturally be thinking about this kind of thing.  And as someone who is myself now in his 40s with children of his own, this kind of rumination about legacy and so forth really resonates with me too, because I'm beginning to understand on a gut level that I'm not going to be around forever, either.  Sure, even at the age of 7, I knew I was going to die someday, but when you're young, you kind of brush it off to the side and think, "Well, I still don't have to worry about that for a little while," and that feeling can literally last for a few decades.  But once you hit middle age or older, death starts to seem more immediate, so you can't help but feel differently about it, even if you've considered the topic in the past. 

That's my two cents, anyway...
I can relate.  This was a process I went through around the time of Pop and ATYCLB, and I felt they were addressing those feelings.  I welcomed it then, probably the way many are seeing SOE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline summerholly

  • Refugee
  • *
  • Posts: 259
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 06:47:57 PM »
I find the latest U2 music leave me feeling quite depressed.  To be honest I prefer not to think about my death or explore Bono's feeling on his death, aging or current relationship with god or whatever.  I am in my fifties and have elderly failing parents and sick friends and I actually don't want to dwell on this stuff.  I try and avoid too much self reflection because it scares me lol.  I know Bono is an artist and draws on his experiences but at this point in my life they depress me for some reason. I viewed that sort of theme in a different context when I was younger but now I am living it I don't want more of it.  This has become much more apparent in the last 5 years.  I now understand why my mother didn't want to watch certain TV programs that I used to find interesting.

I also find the actual music uninteresting and I personally can't really distinguish it any more as uniquely U2.

However U2 old music still speaks to me in volumes for some intangible reason and I never get tired of the the old Edge and that echoing chiming guitar, it makes my heart drop every time I hear it ringing through the old music and you can feel Bono's energy shining through.  I also still have a great deal of respect for Bono as I recognise him to be a very genuine person, the band as well.

So I have turned to many artists over my life but with U2 the old music still speaks to me even if the new doesn't.   Maybe because the music also contains echos of the past.

Offline shineinthesummernight

  • Child of Grace
  • **
  • Posts: 1,772
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 08:08:45 PM »
I think the new music certainly does dwell on mortality but not so much in a depressing way.  Rather, it's like a transcendence of mortality, as in for example "Lights of Home" in which the narrator finds a spiritual home that he's been looking for for a very long time.

Offline summerholly

  • Refugee
  • *
  • Posts: 259
Re: Does liking Pop and Zooropa go hand in hand with liking SOI and NLOTH?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2018, 09:09:59 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think the new music certainly does dwell on mortality but not so much in a depressing way.  Rather, it's like a transcendence of mortality, as in for example "Lights of Home" in which the narrator finds a spiritual home that he's been looking for for a very long time.

That is where I diverge.  Bono has always been on a journey exploring that spiritual awareness with life and God and his brushes with mortality and his age have probably resulted in further awareness for him in looking for that transcendence of mortality and perhaps being closer to it than he ever has and embracing it in his lyrics.  My Christian friends say to me that finding that awareness and closeness with God is what gives them strength through life although most of them haven't grappled and searched and questioned quite as much as Bono.   

I have also been on a journey with spirituality. I think most of us are regardless of our beliefs, but mine has reached very different conclusions to Bono so I don't know what it is like to think like he does in that context. I just think that death is most likely where it ends so my journey takes me up to that point but not beyond so mortality is not something I really like to dwell on anymore.  Legacy is an interesting one because when I think about my grandparents who are long dead I feel sad that their memory will die with me and my sister although their genes will flow down the generations.   

It is interesting how their music speaks to us all so differently.  I can understand how the latest music and lyrics resonate strongly with many people but it doesn't with me so much.