Author Topic: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!  (Read 17309 times)

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Offline mbeano

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2009, 03:44:00 PM »
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this perserverance which is being talked about regarding bonos's preaching should be answered with one thing. bono should parctice what he preaches. if he's gonna "perservere" that much, then don't be so hypocritical! Moving their base to holland! after the sh*t we listen to during a concert!

HA!  all your arguments are red herrings and classic examples of poor debate and unsound critical thinking

Definitions of fallacy on the Web:

    * a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    * A fallacy is a component of an argument which, being demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, renders the argument invalid in whole.
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

    * Deceptive or false appearance; deceitfulness; that which misleads the eye or the mind; deception; An argument, or apparent argument, which professes to be decisive of the matter at issue, while in reality it is not
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fallacy

1) The notion that a person must be poor, perfect, humble, selfless, and unwanting of worldly desires in order to want to raise the general poverty or suffering level is pathetically weak and very common fallacy:
It is called ad hominem
A theory is discarded not because of any evidence against it or lack of evidence for it, but because of the person who argues for it. Example:

      A: The Government should enact minimum-wage legislation so that workers are not exploited.
      B: Nonsense. You say that only because you cannot find a good job.  

Offline Mr. T

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2009, 03:46:10 PM »
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if he's gonna "perservere" that much, then don't be so hypocritical! Moving their base to holland! after the sh*t we listen to during a concert!

Moving your taxes to Holland is a human rights abuse now?

Apparently the only way Bono's activism for Africa could be righteous is if the band moved their holdings to the nation with the highest tax rate.

Then the argument for helping the brown people would hold water.

Offline mbeano

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2009, 03:51:23 PM »
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this perserverance which is being talked about regarding bonos's preaching should be answered with one thing. bono should practice what he preaches. if he's gonna "perservere" that much, then don't be so hypocritical! Moving their base to holland! after the sh*t we listen to during a concert!

The only reason I even bring up "perseverance" in the first place is because you say "i whole-heartedly applaud all of the causes u2 as a band support"...

I am highlighting that these are more than pet trivial causes, and as such require more perseverance.  So if you truly do applaud them, you should probably understand that they take it far more seriously as a goal to achieve than just the writing of a song here and there, that is not exactly supporting a cause, that is identifying with it.

joegtheog

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2009, 03:53:24 PM »
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this perserverance which is being talked about regarding bonos's preaching should be answered with one thing. bono should practice what he preaches. if he's gonna "perservere" that much, then don't be so hypocritical! Moving their base to holland! after the sh*t we listen to during a concert!

The only reason I even bring up "perseverance" in the first place is because you say "i whole-heartedly applaud all of the causes u2 as a band support"...

I am highlighting that these are more than pet trivial causes, and as such require more perseverance.  So if you truly do applaud them, you should probably understand that they take it far more seriously as a goal to achieve than just the writing of a song here and there, that is not exactly supporting a cause, that is identifying with it.



MBeano, please continue to go on witcha bad self.

Offline mbeano

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2009, 04:31:58 PM »
Same topic, different argument:

This is now my belief, rather then my reaction to previous posts.

What has drawn me into U2 as true ARTISTS, not just musicians, or a rock band, is how they  
1) Seen everything they do as whole.  Their albums, tours, songs, etc are all so fully complete.  It was never a specific cause, theme or song that really hooked me.  And all these elements made the other more powerful (the tours highlighted the albums in new profound ways, and songs informed not just the current tour but the next albums... they all interwined magically and became greater than the sum of thier parts)

2) their willingness, their audacity and daring to challenge conventional thinking.  Here, on just this thread we have seen arguments of "Politicians should be ABC" "Rock stars should be XYZ"  "Concerts should be blah blah blah"  "The music should be yada yada yada",  "Activists should act like ..."  The whole of the 90s was all about breaking down false conventions of society and displaying humanity outside of these rigid conventions of nonthinking.  Religion, stardom, rock n roll, relationships, government etc are all examined, but not just in the pathetically one-dimensional punk attitude view of the big bad government and social structure being evil but far more profound and deep in its evaluation on how we allow ourselves to accept such BS.  Many of the arguments presented against "preachy" here have shown that all of this was missed by many.  False rules are being trumpeted here, false walls, and restrictions, are so willingly and religiously adhered to....   You can't talk politics at a concert?  Really!  Who the hell says so?

The idea that concerts and politics are mutually exclusive is ridiculous in my mind.  I would not go so far as to argue such a fallacy like "what's next a Britney Concert with no thinking at all?"   However I do question any real reasoning, other than disagreement or the desire for pure escapism from those who want this separation.  I detest the notion that a concert should not have any sort of preaching or politics as the opposite of this would be a dumbing down of the art form.  Art should not have such rigidity.  I applaud the people who have decided not to go, at least they stand by their complaints, instead of wanting to impose limiting ideas.  

A concert can be more than just music, it is an artform in and of itself.  The songs, visuals, setlist, setlist order, lighting, performance, and even talking and banter are all part of the experience.  Anyone who has read or seen U2 know that they think about the entire show.  So it is rather odd not assume there would be some preachyness if you have read even one article.  It is not as if U2 have inserting politics during a portion of a show that didnt make sense to them, like say, during or near a performance of "the Sweetest Thing" or "In A lIttle WHile" or "Stay"  Thier political preachyness has come at almost exactly the same moments in the setlist, at times that we are well aware would make sense.  So this also shuts down any argument of Bono's preaching being "not part of the show"  It may not always have backing music, but it does 90% of the time, and it is always during a preplanned section.

The idea that the concert, as a whole, is not the place for politics is so limiting, narrow, and absurd.  It is just as rificulous to suppose that any other live art form is not the place for religion politics etcs... we should ban it from all opera, theatre, stand up comedy, poetry readings.

I can take a simple "I dont like Bono's preaching"  or "It annoys me" because those are opinions, but once someone trys to present claims and arguments that are just plain fallacies or what a concert should not be, or what an activist or rockstar must be... well then I take issue with that


Offline bloom

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2009, 04:51:06 PM »
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keep it up, Bono! Just despite those who can't stand it - I hope it's just as loud and clear on this upcoming tour.

so, you need your time wasted at a concert by someone preaching about something you already believe in? by someone who's doing it as much for his own ego as his own (noble) beliefs? c'mon, are you stupid enough to want to hear a message that is intrinsic in your head anyway without a rich rock star TELLING you how to spend your time. i, for one, go to a u2 concert to listen to great u2 music and the messages conveyed in the lyrics. i don't need to be preached to. i'm not THAT dumb!

I think the question of “does Bono’s speech-making have a place in U2 concerts” is an interesting one, and I’m glad people are having this conversation. But what I can’t stomach so much is when people start taking the “he’s just doing it for his own ego” line. This is something I’ve learned to expect from a lot of non-fans, but it’s beyond me how anyone who pays any sort of close attention to the band can doubt that Bono does what he does because he believes it’s the right thing to do. Is meeting with the dodgy politicians rather than attacking them an effective form of social activism? Does Bono’s work actually make a difference? THIS is interesting to ponder and discuss, and ultimately history will tell.

(Though even a little research will show you that The Global Fund to fight AIDS, TB and Malaria has received $130 million dollars from Product Red alone – coincidentally, almost exactly matching the total contribution of the entire country of Ireland to date – even when you include the years when Ireland enjoyed the tremendous wealth conferred upon it by U2’s tax dollars)

As for the speeches in the concerts - personally, I think it’s great. I’m not rich by a lot of measures, but do I have the luxury of having a hot shower every day, of buying all the food I need, of choosing to go back to school and do a second degree, of sitting in the comfort of my own home and connecting to the world on my laptop, of listening to music I love on my mp3 player, and deciding to fly to New York to go and see U2. If, during that concert, Bono wants to take five minutes and ask us all to remember that there are some people in the world who can’t even have clean water sometimes, let along hot water or mp3 players, I will not find it “vulgar” or “sickening”. And “hypocritical”? It’s no more hypocritical for him to talk about poverty than it is for any of us to say we find it offensive to hear about – when many aspects of the very lifestyle we enjoy only exist because of the inbalances there are in the world.

Offline indiansummer

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2009, 05:10:11 PM »
MrBeano; As I said on another thread about this same thing, if you want to listen to Bono preaching then I can send you you the Notre Dame boot from 2001 where he talks for 10 feckin minutes before One, I'm sure you'll love to listen to it. In fact I can make a compilation from the Elevation and Vertigo tours for you, should fill a few discs and you can listen at your leisure. It's a feckin pain in the ass when you listen to boots to have to go and edit each one for the diatribe before One, perhaps you can do it for me because it's p'ing me off !!!

joegtheog

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2009, 05:14:54 PM »
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MrBeano; As I said on another thread about this same thing, if you want to listen to Bono preaching then I can send you you the Notre Dame boot from 2001 where he talks for 10 feckin minutes before One, I'm sure you'll love to listen to it. In fact I can make a compilation from the Elevation and Vertigo tours for you, should fill a few discs and you can listen at your leisure. It's a feckin pain in the ass when you listen to boots to have to go and edit each one for the diatribe before One, perhaps you can do it for me because it's p'ing me off !!!


I have a better idea. Why don't you contact Principle Management directly and let them know that your free bootleg concerts are ruined by Bono's talking and have Paul McGuinness tell Bono to stop doing it so that your free bootleg concerts aren't ruined anymore?

Offline mbeano

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2009, 05:40:55 PM »
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MrBeano; As I said on another thread about this same thing, if you want to listen to Bono preaching then I can send you you the Notre Dame boot from 2001 where he talks for 10 feckin minutes before One, I'm sure you'll love to listen to it. In fact I can make a compilation from the Elevation and Vertigo tours for you, should fill a few discs and you can listen at your leisure. It's a feckin pain in the ass when you listen to boots to have to go and edit each one for the diatribe before One, perhaps you can do it for me because it's p'ing me off !!!


Your own arguments are working against you.
as many have said previously, and so have I... you know this going to a U2 concert ahead of time.  And as far as bootlegs go, I have many, with speeches as well, dating back to the 80s.  This is certainly NOTHING NEW.  And if you have the boots, not only do you 1) know what to expect before going to a U2 show.  2) But also know pretty much when to go grab a beer/bathroom break.  Its that simple

In terms of listening to a bootleg:  Hey wow, what is that nifty button with the forward arrow? 

I can respect those that have chosen not to go.  They have at least stuck by their complaints. 

My arguments are not in regards towards loving speeches, but the idea that these IN GENERAL are a bad thing.  The original arguments against the speeches were made in a very general manner. 

Also, even though, in general I am AGAINST limiting politics in a concert (or any other place that some people feel it doesnt fit neatly into, this does not mean I would LOVE a 10 min speech of any kind.  You will see that all my arguments are in terms of the general premise of politics within a concert setting, or limiting of some general sort of what should be said where.  Execution/effectiveness is a whole other topic.  I do agree that a literal (not exaggerated) 10 minutes is excessive, and most likely less effective.  However, this would not make me say to cut politics in general.  The majority of U2 concerts I have attended, as well as the many bootlegs i own and listen to are not 10 minutes.  So again, your point is somewhat lost, as it is by no means the norm.  The majority of the recent speeches are before One or Miracle Drug and have backing music and last less than 3 minutes.   It has been easy to predict when and how long these speeches will take (again for the most part), and so very easy to prepare for and avoid if that is your preference. 

I really hated some of the visuals, especially at ONE show in LA where they were really awful... U2 should stop using visuals altogether and just play the music.... NOT



« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 06:35:01 PM by mbeano »

Offline Yggdrasille

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2009, 07:07:11 PM »
I admit, Bono's speeches during the concerts do make me cringe, a lot. But I accept that it's something he's done for many years now and unlikely to stop in the near future, and I've no doubt that his intentions are good. So I'm ok to put up with that.

Offline StrongGirl

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2009, 07:23:12 PM »
I have no problem with Bono's preaching. It is part of who he is and what he believes in. The fact that he is a rich rock star does not make him any less of an amazing person for working tirelessly to help the world's poorest people. I admire him and it is part of what makes U2 well, U2.  He uses his fame for an important cause. I have recently been active in this cause and have been a member of ONE for quite awhile now. For those who don't know-check out the link on this very forum-Have a Heart for Africa and read these people's true stories about what they face everyday. You will also find out how they feel about what Bono has done for them. It doesn't seem to bother them that Bono is rich. They love him. They just care that he is nice enough to take the time to tell the rest of the world about them. He is their VOX (voice ) for those who have none. I can't believe we have someone who is doing so much to try and make this world a better place and all we do is attack and  criticize him. What are we all doing??? We can't do as much as Bono but we can do a small part. We all need to walk in their shoes - oh that's right- they don't have shoes when they walk those 10 miles to get that dirty water to make it through another day. Preach away Bono - IN THE NAME OF LOVE!!!  SG

Offline Anthony02

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« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2009, 07:39:29 PM »
Great post SG. IMO some people are selfish and dont want to be bothered by Bono's so called "preaching." A rich rock star trying to make the world a better place. Helping others that cant help themselves. Man, what an a**.       

Offline aarond

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2009, 07:46:42 PM »
I thought since Bono was on stage and not breaking any laws he could do as he pleases, and let the fans decide whether or not a concert is worth the cash. I'm sure there are plenty of people who like to have enough money to buy dinner, much less go to a concert and here somebody talk.

Offline George

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2009, 08:41:35 PM »
So it seems to me that a solution that would satisfy almost everone is if Bono continues to to preach his message, but he should keep it to within the music, only saying a few things here as there, as has been done in Bullet the Blue Sky, Sunday Bloody Sunday, and Pride.

For those that don't like it at all, is this acceptable?  Are we really only complaining about the excess of during the lsat 2 tours?  Or should all not-sung political messages be dropped entirely?

Offline thehype88

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Re: bono, please no more preaching on this tour!
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2009, 09:28:53 PM »
i have i brilliant idea, why don't we accept the fact that Bono isn't prefect, his preaching can get a little annoying, but it goes with the territory. and that our political leaders aren't perfect and never will be. so how about you all shut the f*** up and just enjoy the f***ing music.

thread ends here, I've made it official.