Poll

Do you believe in God?

Yes
58 (65.2%)
No
31 (34.8%)

Total Members Voted: 82

Voting closed: April 04, 2009, 03:05:22 PM

Author Topic: U2.... God... Believe...  (Read 30743 times)

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Offline Mystways

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2009, 10:53:38 AM »
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Having been an atheist since age 8 (I'm now 27 and lots of change), I'd have to say that no, I don't believe in any god. It just seemed absurdly far fetched even at that young age. Religion is something separate from belief, in my experience: belief is about the individual, religion about the individual's place in the world. Sometimes the two coexist.

I really like this Edge quote: "I don't have a problem with Christ, I have a problem with christians."


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Some interesting discussion going on, here. I won't try to join the whole "does God exist or not?" debate. IMO that can't be "proven" by humans any more than evolution can be "proven"—they call it a faith or a theory for a reason. But I am very much a follower of Christ-as-God, though, like Bono, I often have a problem with the religion of Christianity.

Let's not confuse evolution with faith, please. Evolution is the name given the process of biological change over time. It has several sizable mountain ranges of support and has been observed in action in repeatable experiments.

A scientific theory is not a guess.
Sorry if my wording was confusing. I didn't mean to call evolution a faith—that was in reference to the "God exists" side. What I meant to say, is that I think seeing either a higher power or evolution as 100% "provable" is an error.

No-one (unless you trust the Bible) recorded how the universe began (or what went on for a good while after that) and even if they had, many would still doubt the accuracy of their record. So we have to depend on a lot things that are second-hand information, no matter how reliable we think they may be. Because of that, I think it takes just as much trust to believe that everything happened by chance, as it does to believe it was designed by a higher power.

As for a theory not being a guess—I'll have to disagree with you there, unless you mean it's an educated guess.

From Oxford American Dictionaries...

theory |ˈθēərē; ˈθi(ə)rē|
noun ( pl. -ries)
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained : Darwin's theory of evolution.
• a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based : a theory of education | music theory.
• an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action : my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged.
• Mathematics a collection of propositions to illustrate the principles of a subject.

ORIGIN late 16th cent.(denoting a mental scheme of something to be done): via late Latin from Greek theōria ‘contemplation, speculation,’ from theōros ‘spectator.’

supposition |ˌsəpəˈzi sh ən|
noun
an uncertain belief : they were working on the supposition that his death was murder | their outrage was based on supposition and hearsay.
DERIVATIVES
suppositional |- sh ənl| adjective
ORIGIN late Middle English (as a term in scholastic logic): from Old French, or from late Latin suppositio(n-) (translating Greek hupothesis ‘hypothesis’ ), from the verb supponere (see suppose ).

Offline vertigo5000

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2009, 11:11:17 AM »
Christian: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Athiest: one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

Agnostic: one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God or one who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism

I'm an Agnostic, in this situation I feel its best to be sitting on the fence :)

Offline JuniorEmblem

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2009, 11:14:17 AM »
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Christian: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Athiest: one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

Agnostic: one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God or one who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism

I'm an Agnostic, in this situation I feel its best to be sitting on the fence :)

Sitting on the fence just hurts your ass, man up and make a decision !

 ;)

Offline kboman

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2009, 11:21:30 AM »
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Let's not confuse evolution with faith, please. Evolution is the name given the process of biological change over time. It has several sizable mountain ranges of support and has been observed in action in repeatable experiments.

A scientific theory is not a guess.
Sorry if my wording was confusing. I didn't mean to call evolution a faith—that was in reference to the "God exists" side. What I meant to say, is that I think seeing either a higher power or evolution as 100% "provable" is an error.

Gotcha on the first part :)

Regarding the second part, the semantics make things seem different from what they are. Evolution is like gravity - it's there, whatever we feel about it. The "theory of evolution" is the scientific explanation of how and why it works as observed, just as the "theory of gravity" is. This is not something I personally find meaningful to invest faith in, it is what it is and only our explanation - the theory - changes as new research adds to/subtracts from it.


Quote
No-one (unless you trust the Bible) recorded how the universe began (or what went on for a good while after that) and even if they had, many would still doubt the accuracy of their record. So we have to depend on a lot things that are second-hand information, no matter how reliable we think they may be. Because of that, I think it takes just as much trust to believe that everything happened by chance, as it does to believe it was designed by a higher power.

Another interesting discussion! And any sane scientist looking into this would cheerfully agree that no, we don't know how things got started. For me, this is a very attractive and comforting thought - partly because it's up to us to find out, not to be dictated to.
But the beginning of the universe has nothing to do with evolution. :)


Quote
As for a theory not being a guess—I'll have to disagree with you there, unless you mean it's an educated guess.

I did say "scientific theory", and that's about as educated as it gets :)
The scientific method is one of the distinctly great achievements of humanity in my opinion.

Offline jick

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2009, 12:32:29 PM »
Bono has been greatly influenced by Christian authors such as Phillip Yancey and CS Lewis.

U2 have always mentioned God in their songs and albums, and even hidden scriptural passages.

I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For is a gospel song.

40 was taken straight of the Book Of Psalms, and Wake Up Dead Man.

Yahweh is virtually God.

Grace is about the Christian concept that makes it a unique religion.

All I Want Is You could be about the sacrament of matrimony and its permanence "what God has put together, let no man put asunder" - that is why in some countries divorce is illegal and Bono has still stuck to the same wife.

It seems U2 always tip off their hat to God in their final songs in their albums.   It is their way of saying amen.

God was most present and most mentioned in POP and October.

I think those people who understand Christian beliefs are in a position to have a deeper interpretation of U2's most Christian themed songs.

Cheers,

J

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2009, 12:36:26 PM »
I voted no.

Although, I'm open to the possibilty of their being a God. I just need more proof.  :-\

Offline MEMORY_MAN

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2009, 12:50:10 PM »
I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  Religion not included...

Offline Malachi

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2009, 01:12:54 PM »
Im the same as Memory Man. Christianity is (at the end of the day) all about your relationship with Jesus and God.

My problem is when it becomes all institutional, everything as to be done a certain way and we (humanity) put God in a box, this is when religion gets in the way and it then starts to detract from the original point and in some cases people get hurt. Ive seen it happen before, and thats what I don't like about Religion.

Well that my 2 cents worth lol. Although I do generaly state my views (when I write them out) in an odd and badly written way. ;D

Mal

Offline CDProp

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2009, 01:27:25 PM »
I don't believe in God, but I can still recognize and identify with passion, which Bono used to have a lot of when it came to religion. I love most of the older, religious-themed songs.

Nowadays, most of his religious-themed lyrics seem totally banal, and it makes it hard for me to accept that he is still a believer. He had more religious passion in 2 seconds of any Pop song, where he seemed at his least religious, or more-precisely his most doubtful, than the entirety of the song Yahweh.

Offline Malachi

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2009, 01:40:42 PM »
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Nowadays, most of his religious-themed lyrics seem totally banal, and it makes it hard for me to accept that he is still a believer. He had more religious passion in 2 seconds of any Pop song, where he seemed at his least religious, or more-precisely his most doubtful, than the entirety of the song Yahweh.

I agree. I was listening to Pop today and the passion and doubt in his voice and lyrics was incredible. Compare that to the newer stuff and although the lyrics are from more of a believers view point, there not as convincing (to me anyway) as the older stuff. I was thinking this the other day, wondering if his beliefs are as strong as they were in the pop day's but hey, Bono is Bono. Who know what's going on in his head. :D

Mal

Offline JuniorEmblem

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2009, 01:48:12 PM »
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Nowadays, most of his religious-themed lyrics seem totally banal, and it makes it hard for me to accept that he is still a believer. He had more religious passion in 2 seconds of any Pop song, where he seemed at his least religious, or more-precisely his most doubtful, than the entirety of the song Yahweh.

I agree. I was listening to Pop today and the passion and doubt in his voice and lyrics was incredible. Compare that to the newer stuff and although the lyrics are from more of a believers view point, there not as convincing (to me anyway) as the older stuff. I was thinking this the other day, wondering if his beliefs are as strong as they were in the pop day's but hey, Bono is Bono. Who know what's going on in his head. :D

Mal

Stuff like "All Because of You", "Magnificent", "Yahweh" is just a step above "I love Jesus yes I do"

You don't need a belief in God to understand Christian beliefs, or to understand that Pop was Bono's last great lyrical effort


Offline CDProp

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2009, 01:50:06 PM »
Quote
I agree. I was listening to Pop today and the passion and doubt in his voice and lyrics was incredible. Compare that to the newer stuff and although the lyrics are from more of a believers view point, there not as convincing (to me anyway) as the older stuff.

Exactly, and I would add that his lyrics from the the 80's and early 90's seem to be from a believer's standpoint, but they're much more powerful than his current lyrics. It really seems to me that he was a big believer all throughout the 80's and a bit of the 90's. In the late 90's, he had a crisis of faith, which he ultimately resolved, but not completely sincerely. On the surface, he believes, but deep down, there is something about the whole thing that bothers him. Maybe it's a sort of Problem of Evil sort of thing. His real passion right now is for Africa, and he can't help but feel that, as bad as Americans/Europeans are for standing by with buckets of water in hand while Africa burns, God is even worse. That's my speculative opinion.

Offline vertigo5000

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2009, 03:46:15 PM »

Gods so lucky,
he has soo much power, he is the beginning and the end
has unlimited strength and can create a whole universe
but it comes at a price...

Gods everywhere watching everything

and that includes HOLLYOAKS   :o

I do NOT envy that guy   ;D

Offline CDProp

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2009, 04:15:05 PM »
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As for a theory not being a guess—I'll have to disagree with you there, unless you mean it's an educated guess.

From Oxford American Dictionaries...

theory |ˈθēərē; ˈθi(ə)rē|
noun ( pl. -ries)
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained : Darwin's theory of evolution.
• a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based : a theory of education | music theory.
• an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action : my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged.
• Mathematics a collection of propositions to illustrate the principles of a subject.

ORIGIN late 16th cent.(denoting a mental scheme of something to be done): via late Latin from Greek theōria ‘contemplation, speculation,’ from theōros ‘spectator.’

supposition |ˌsəpəˈzi sh ən|
noun
an uncertain belief : they were working on the supposition that his death was murder | their outrage was based on supposition and hearsay.
DERIVATIVES
suppositional |- sh ənl| adjective
ORIGIN late Middle English (as a term in scholastic logic): from Old French, or from late Latin suppositio(n-) (translating Greek hupothesis ‘hypothesis’ ), from the verb supponere (see suppose ).

Far be it from me to challenge the dictionary, but this is the first dictionary entry I've ever read that has used a word like 'supposition' as a synonym for 'theory' in the scientific context, which is the context that matters when discussing Evolution and The Big Bang.

I agree with everything in that definition after the word 'or'. A scientific theory is an explanatory framework. It is no more speculative than a scientific fact or law.

None of the other dictionaries I've used have described scientific theories as suppository or speculative. Notice how all of the following definitions describe scientific theories as explanatory frameworks of some kind:

Random House:

Quote
A coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.

American Heritage:

Quote
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Webster's:

Quote
An exposition of the general or abstract principles of any science; as, the theory of music.

WordNet:

Quote
a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

American Heritage (again)

Quote
In science, an explanation or model that covers a substantial group of occurrences in nature and has been confirmed by a substantial number of experiments and observations. A theory is more general and better verified than a hypothesis. (See Big Bang theory, evolution, and relativity.)

Of course, in daily speech, outside the context of Science, you hear the word "theory" used in place of "hypothesis" or "speculation" all the time. So, you will find those definitions in there too. But it's important, when choosing a definition, to choose the one that matters in context.

For example, if you were to call me a jerk, I wouldn't think that you were calling me a sudden movement. :p
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 04:17:57 PM by CDProp »

Offline HUNGRYTICKETS

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Re: U2.... God... Believe...
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2009, 04:34:51 PM »
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I don't think its the traits of a hate group as much as an ignorant group. I hear where you are coming from, though.  But Bono getting a gift of a rosary doesn't really have anything to do with this.

Of course it does. Bono met the Pope, ergo Bono agrees with everything the Catholic Church (an accepted hate group) declares.

And the final result is Bono supports a hate group.

Hey Joe, what do you have against Tibet?



LOL!!!! Yeah! Now that I think about it, my t-shirt is made in China, so I agree wholeheartedly with their repression of Tibet!!!! That makes perfect sense!!! ;D :D