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U2 => General U2 Discussion => Topic started by: bangandclatter on July 28, 2011, 09:39:19 PM

Title: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: bangandclatter on July 28, 2011, 09:39:19 PM
I'm confident in saying that 360 is right next to zoo TV, if not better.  The songs are being played better.  The technology is better.  The amount of people seeing the live show is way beyond that of zoo (or any other tour).

I never thought they could top Zoo TV, but I think U2's best touring effort is coming to an end in Moncton.  I was lucky enough to see the 360 show(time) four times, and Nashville has become my favorite show of all time...well done lads.

Felt good to get that off my chest.  I still love zoo though!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 28, 2011, 09:46:03 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.

Zoo TV was revolutionary for U2 and for touring in general, but I think in terms of setlists and the efficiency of the band on stage, 360 wins.

I didn't see Zoo TV live though, so what do I know *waits for the elitist U2 fans to attack*
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 28, 2011, 10:06:36 PM
well the songs should be being played better, most of them have been played for 10-20 years by now.

nothing like a big tour to go with 2 globally acclaimed albums, whole crowd cheering when every new song starts up as they've all heard them and like them but they've never heard them live before. only relying on oldies to break things up. thats what a real tour is all about.

so still zoo tv for me.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: An Cat Dubh on July 28, 2011, 10:27:52 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Zoo TV was revolutionary for U2 and for touring in general, but I think in terms of setlists and the efficiency of the band on stage, 360 wins.

I didn't see Zoo TV live though, so what do I know *waits for the elitist U2 fans to attack*

Im not going to attack you, but I do think if you had witnessed Zoo TV, you might have thought differently.

You know what I think of WOWY. Well it was EPIC on Zoo TV. The BTBS/RTSS/Streets segment was completely mind blowing.

Indoors, Zoo TV was monumental.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Boom Cha! on July 28, 2011, 10:30:27 PM
360 is the only U2 tour I've seen, but I really don't think it stacks up to ZooTV and Popmart.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Joe90usa on July 28, 2011, 10:32:00 PM
I don't see the comparison at all. They were extremely different tours. I think the overwhelming majority of those who loved Zoo TV would not think that 360 was better.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: ABloodRedSky on July 28, 2011, 10:40:19 PM
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360 is the only U2 tour I've seen, but I really don't think it stacks up to ZooTV and Popmart.

+1

And I agree with what someone else said earlier...I think what really, really marks a tour as amazing is when there are solid crowd reactions for new songs. Let's face it, probably a lot of casual U2 fans who went to 360 weren't there for Magnificent or Crazy Tonight, sadly.  :( That's not to say that people who went to ZooTV weren't there for Joshua Tree songs...of course they were. But from what it looks like (from videos), people loved One and Mysterious Ways, etc.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 29, 2011, 01:26:31 AM
I think the technology is better, yes, and the songs were performed incredibly well at the show I went to and I was entirely blown away, so no argument there...but ZOO TV and PopMart and 360 are three different beasts entirely so I think you'd need to give more reasons than you do to support your analysis of why one was better than the other, and the main thing missing here is context.

ZOO TV represented a constellation of not just U2's decision to tour with the stage and show that they did, but also with the expansion of mass media in general around the world from being channel-based to cable and satellite-based, especially where news and world events were concerned.  It's hard now to imagine a world without 24 hour instant news coverage and yet that's exactly how the media world was until cable, cable news, CNN, etc. and U2 tapped right into this shift with their stage show of piled televisions and live cable and satellite feeds.

I think it's not only safe but accurate to say that ZOO TV was "revolutionary" and "visionary" in numerous ways.  The two ZOO TV shows I saw (please don't call me an elitist, call me lucky) were pretty mind-blowing, and the second one at Foxboro Stadium after the band had toured around with it for a while and after the start of the first Gulf War and the Bosnia War was a disorienting overload...but not just the way it utilized the technology of the time, but also how the band had captured the essence of the shifts taking place around the world and made this essence their nightly playground.  With that thought in mind, ZOO TV was a media and cultural and political and musical event all rolled into one.  

On top of all this, the band as whole were completely out of their minds living the apex of their rock star decadence and creative wildness.  I think this spilled over into POP and PopMart (just watch the opening of the Mexico show...what an insane entrance), but PopMart was more performance art and conceptual art than the surrealism and dadaism and overall "grand madness" of ZOO TV.  For me, PopMart was all about the screen.  I was fortunate to have seats close to the stage for the first PopMart show I saw but felt like I was almost TOO CLOSE to really enjoy the full effect of the stage and screen.  It was beautiful and psychedelic and really pretty weird overall in several ways.  

I thought I was going to be underwhelmed by 360, having watched so many YouTube clips of the tour before going to the show I went to.  Remember, there was no YouTube for ZOO TV or PopMart, so it was very hard to have a full sense of what a show would be like before you went to it.  Now you can watch a hundred or a thousand versions of a single song shot and uploaded by a hundred or a thousand fans just a few minutes after the show ends...and tune into live streams broadcast from single individuals within the venue.  All of these changes are ZOO TV magnified and multiplied exponentially.

360 and Vertigo are/were both revolutionary as well, but more as vehicles to showcase new stage and lighting and screen and sound technologies than the cultural and historical zeitgeist that was/IS ZOO TV.

360 blew my mind.  When I first walked into the stadium and saw the magnitude of the stage and screen and heard the sound (the band was already playing, traffic and a late start causing me to miss the first two songs) I kept saying wow!, wow! as I took it all in, and each song brought with it its own video and lighting set-up.  It felt like being INSIDE a music video and INSIDE the stage.  Very, very cool.

That being said, the evening as a whole felt more like an entertainment "event" than a "happening."  After ZOO TV, I left each show I saw thinking "what the hell was THAT?", feeling simultaneously amused, overwhelmed, baffled, stimulated, thoughtful, AND entertained...and keep in mind that I was much younger then and much wilder, so it took a lot more to impress me then than it does now.  ZOO TV would probably have been too much for me if I'd seen the show at the age I'm at now (mid-40s) because it was ALMOST too much then, especially that Foxboro Show.  Grand madness indeed.

Trying to quantify tours, though, is a difficult task.  I know the Clash/Who show I saw at the L.A. Coliseum had no video screen and not much of a stage show but that my memory of it was that I had witnessed an incredible show, even with seats three quarters of the way to the back of the stadium.  Fast forward to 1987 and The Joshua Tree show I also saw there...I'm pretty sure there were no video screens for that show either but the band still did then what they continue to do now--make that huge stadium feel like a cathedral in which everyone felt included in the proceedings...

Fast forward ten, twenty, fifty, a hundred years from now and people will look at footage of the concert technologies of OUR time and wonder how any of us could get any enjoyment at all out of such a primitive set-up.

All of the above being said, I'd rank my experiences of War, The Unforgettable Fire, The Joshua Tree, Conspiracy Of Hope, ZOO TV, PopMArt, Vertigo, and 360 tours equally as far as my enjoyment of them goes as well as the infusion of energy each brought.  But if you want to discuss the broader contexts of ZOO TV vs. 360 as they each relate to the years they were presented, world events, culture, and media, ZOO TV has to rank at the top of the list.



Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: wraitii on July 29, 2011, 01:30:39 AM
The ZooTV is still U2's best era, unless the next album and what comes along with it is mind-blowing.
The ZooTV is no longer U2's biggest. That's the achievement. They finally managed to make the ZooTV look "small".

As for which tour is better... 20 years have passed, and it's not the same thing anymore. I guess it will be more a matter of opinions and tastes.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 02:57:07 AM
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I'm confident in saying that 360 is right next to zoo TV, if not better.  The songs are being played better.  The technology is better.  The amount of people seeing the live show is way beyond that of zoo (or any other tour).


Hmmmm.  Well, it's just an opinion, and therefore can't be wrong. It's all subjective.  I'm sure lots of people agree with you...but I don't think many people who saw both shows would be among them. :)

I agree with most of what the Professor said in his, um, treatise, about the relative cultural and musical influence of the shows, so I won't go into that again. He's pretty spot on. However, I will just say I believe two of your three criteria in determining that 360 is a better tour may be....suspect.  Certainly the songs "being played better" is a legitimate thing to judge a tour on.  However, saying that 360 is "better" because the "technology is better" and more people are seeing it, I think, misses the mark. And sort of misses the point of U2's music entirely.  I respect your opinion, and there's certainly nothing wrong with thinking 360 is their best tour, for whatever reason you wish.  I just believe there's more to greatness than technology & ticket sales.

You didn't mention whether you were at ZOO TV or not, but let me just say, that tour was about more than high tech and large audiences.  Let's put it this way...some movies have spectacular special effects and sell a lot of tickets, but there's no story.  Others have great special effects, but a compelling story and drama to go along with them.  I believe ZOO TV falls into the later category.

I've seen every tour since TUF (except Lovetown), and they were all special, and I really can't compare them.  I guess my best memories are of Elevation for a variety of reasons, but again that's of course purely subjective.  I will say...I saw 360 twice, and while there were certain, fleeting, quintessential "U2 moments" I thought that something was missing at both the shows I saw.  Who knows, perhaps all that was missing was my younger self, but those shows definitely felt a little more hollow than what I'd seen before. It seemed to me at certain points in the show I swear I could actually see Bono trying to create some of those magical (for lack of a better word) moments U2 concerts are known for.  Whereas previously those moments came effortlessly and spontaneously.  I think someone once said "the moment you try for genius you've failed".  Don't get me wrong....I thoroughly enjoyed 360, and those shows were admittedly quite spectacular in every measurable way. (that first sight of the Claw as you come out of the tunnel to get to your seats is pretty impressive...I felt the same way as I did the first time I saw Red Square and the Grand Canyon..though obviously on a different scale).  But the Claw, that huge screen and all those lights can only take you so far.  Any band with the resources can create a show that technologically spectacular. What separates U2 is their music and the sprit they conjure up when the stars align.

Again, your mileage may vary.



Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 03:01:09 AM
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On top of all this, the band as whole were completely out of their minds living the apex of their rock star decadence and creative wildness.




Well, Prof, I'm pretty sure it was mostly just Adam who went down that particular road. :)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 29, 2011, 04:53:27 AM
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On top of all this, the band as whole were completely out of their minds living the apex of their rock star decadence and creative wildness.




Well, Prof, I'm pretty sure it was mostly just Adam who went down that particular road. :)

No, I'm pretty sure Bono did too, and Larry and The Edge.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Unknown Caller on July 29, 2011, 05:05:04 AM
Completely depends on your taste, what concerts you saw and how your particular concert experience was. It's difficult to get more general than that. My dad, for instance, has seen every tour since the early days and his two favourite concerts are 360 from Torino and the Joshua Tree indoors in Belfast. No matter how many times the internet may conclude that Zoo, Pop and Elevation are the highlights, he just preferred those two to any of the others- and that's fine, because it means he had better concert experiences and they worked for him.

I  instinctively think that Zoo TV and PopMart were better tours than 360- but at the same time,I know that 360 trumps them on lots of counts, from range of songs to setlist flexibility to tour evolution to including lots of songs not even written then. Not to mention the fact that both those setlists had some very weak songs for the majority of the tours as far as I'm concerned (TTTYAATW and Satellite of Love, Miami and the 'karaoke' slot). That's all fine, and I recognise that 360 and Vertigo are better in those respects- but I still prefer those tours overall.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: HEY!youtwo! on July 29, 2011, 05:46:48 AM
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360 is the only U2 tour I've seen, but I really don't think it stacks up to ZooTV and Popmart.

+1

And I agree with what someone else said earlier...I think what really, really marks a tour as amazing is when there are solid crowd reactions for new songs. Let's face it, probably a lot of casual U2 fans who went to 360 weren't there for Magnificent or Crazy Tonight, sadly.  :( That's not to say that people who went to ZooTV weren't there for Joshua Tree songs...of course they were. But from what it looks like (from videos), people loved One and Mysterious Ways, etc.

I think that that is more the mark of a good album, but doesn't necessarily have an impact on how good the tour is
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
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On top of all this, the band as whole were completely out of their minds living the apex of their rock star decadence and creative wildness.




Well, Prof, I'm pretty sure it was mostly just Adam who went down that particular road. :)

No, I'm pretty sure Bono did too, and Larry and The Edge.



Hence my use of the word "mostly".  I don't recall Bono, The Edge or Larry getting arrested for drug possession...or being too hung over to play a show.  But if you have anything to establish otherwise, I'd love to hear it. :)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 29, 2011, 05:55:58 AM
they dropped arms for zooropa and satelite of love was cool. duet with video lou reed. spin the audience out.

hey U2. a tour can be really great without new songs but its the premiering of masses of new songs live and the crowd loving it that really marks a tour as a peak.

and gavin, they all went down the road, they just didnt crash along the way.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Ridiculous Voices on July 29, 2011, 06:01:14 AM
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well the songs should be being played better, most of them have been played for 10-20 years by now.

nothing like a big tour to go with 2 globally acclaimed albums, whole crowd cheering when every new song starts up as they've all heard them and like them but they've never heard them live before. only relying on oldies to break things up. thats what a real tour is all about.

so still zoo tv for me.

Fantastic critique on the differences between the two tours.......I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Johnny Feathers on July 29, 2011, 07:48:07 AM
Yeah, the differences are pretty stark in my mind.  Zoo TV and PopMart both were ABOUT something, they were commenting on the constant presence of television, and consumerism, respectively.  Add to that the fact that Zoo TV was truly an artistic about face for the band, that the new material was rapturously received, that it revitalized the band for at least another decade, that it completely changed how future concerts would be staged....I mean, heck, the band themselves have resorted to referencing their own 90's heyday in the Vertigo tour encores, and in the recent Zoo-TV themed Glastonbury and recent 360 shows.

The only thing I might concede is from a strictly musical standpoint--certainly the Elevation-era version of the Fly is possibly better than the Zoo TV version.  And of course, the technology today allows for much more elaborate effects--that can be said of any concert today.  Hell, Zoo TV was done with synchronized LASERDISC players.  Today you could probably run the exact same show off of a laptop.  But historically, and most importantly, ARTISTICLY....Zoo TV, hands down.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Midnight is Where the Day Begins on July 29, 2011, 08:19:03 AM
To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour...

We're right.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 29, 2011, 11:37:49 AM
When I mentioned that U2 were out of their minds I did mention both rock star decadence AND creative wildness.  I perhaps should have emphasized the latter over the former and spelled out the decadence angle a little better.  I don't have much knowledge of U2's partying ways beyond their obvious enjoyment of Guiness and beer and Adam's marijuana habit.  I don't picture anyone in the band getting really ugly and belligerent, though, only doing damage to themselves and never hotel rooms or others, as far as we know.  They're nice lads.  I swear, though, I remember reading an interview with the band about their time in Los Angeles recording Rattle And Hum in which Bono talked about the band driving high speed down the freeways one night tripping on LSD or mushrooms... 

Decadence doesn't only take the form of inebriation, though, it can also be the manifestations of various aspects of their creative wildness, i.e. the roles they played in interviews, playing with U2's identity, hamming up and embracing the rock star image for the first time in their career, hobnobbing with the jetset crowd and supermodels and even President Clinton.  They pretty much had carte blanche to do whatever they wanted to do and I'm pretty sure that they took advantage of this on a nightly basis.  It's also probably important to note that this was before Bono was made out to be the caricature of himself that he is often depicted as by those who don't think much of him.  During ZOO TV, he and the rest of the band were playing the role of devil's advocates and instigators and having fun with doing so.

This phase of U2's career is rich with probably the most interesting interviews with the band and articles about the band and ZOO TV.  I revisit these or try to find new ones online as well as YouTube clips, the sum total of which is a lot of evidence of "the grand madness" Bono refers to when he spoke of the ZOO TV era.  It really felt at the time like they were re-inventing rock and roll and their own roles as rock stars in the process.  It was the show that everybody HAD to go to, U2's metaphorical road version of Apocalypse Now.  If you can track down the 1992(?) Details Magazine interview with the band done by William Gibson, it's a great read, as is Uncut Magazine's special U2 edition's section on the Achtung Baby years. 

Here's some good clips:

U2 Drinking During Live Satellite Feed Of Billboard Awards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD4PXEw8hxM&feature=related

French Television Interview w/ Adam Looking Pretty Sharp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4VWQkyHMPY

"ZOO Beer"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTAJ0LfwuQM&feature=related

U2 Receives Award In Dressing Room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv0n2H6Wdkk&feature=related

AND JUST FOR GREAT COVERAGE OF THE ZOO TV TOUR/ERA/& ACHTUNG BABY:

Doc. Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ0CISIAwjw&feature=related

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ-WuXRNAVk&feature=related

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vk-9Uqa55Q&feature=related

ZOO TV Disc Bonus Material Doc Interview w/Edge & Eno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRVkN4I9s14&feature=related

A 90 Minute Documentary & Analysis Of Achtung Baby (Little U2, But Interesting Commentary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwTjA7A7ORE&feature=related






Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 11:53:23 AM
Prof, I know what you meant. :) I was more just making a joke at Adam C's expense, not really counting how many pints the boys downed those years.  I wasn't there and privy to that information (unfortunately) :)  I know they've all had their share of, um, Guinness over the years.  Adam just seems the one who came closest to exhibiting typical Rock Stars behaving badly characteristics.  Luckily, I think the incident in Sydney pulled him back from the brink.

If I'm not mistaken, Flanagan describes some pretty heaving partying in his book (I think Larry injects himself w/bull's blood at some point), but it's so long since I read it I don't remember exactly.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 29, 2011, 12:13:43 PM
"Gav, for a guy who's new to the forum you're coming on a bit strong."  (Exile)   ;)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
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"Gav, for a guy who's new to the forum you're coming on a bit strong."  (Exile)   ;)

Live out loud.  At high volume. :)

Speaking of coming on a bit strong...the first link, the one w/the Phil Collins clip...not the band's finest hour in my opinion.  They kind of act like a**holes, and actually made me feel bad for poor Phil trying to play it straight.  Larry should be grateful he missed out on that one.

EDIT: I just watched the first four videos you posted Prof, and they come across like jerks in all of them.  Hardly the same guys.  Wow.  I'm glad they don't act like that anymore.  I was a fan back then, but either I didn't see that stuff or just viewed it through different eyes.  I know, I know, before anyone says anything, I know it was supped to be all "rock star" schtick, and I'm sure they thought they were being ironic at the time, but still, I think they'd be embarrassed to see some of that stuff now.

That interview w/Kurt Loder is a little interesting, however, and should be required viewing for those who thought 90's U2 didn't care about being commercial.  And it must be the first recorded time Bono said "If you don't know what it is, then it must be art".
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Northern Star on July 29, 2011, 12:34:12 PM
Professor - your first post was a brilliant write up of the difference between Zoo TV and 360, each has to be experienced in its own era to fully understand the relevance of the tours.  Zoo TV was mind blowing in its time, exciting, new technology, off the wall, the band were really taking big risks, shedding their "righteous" image, as they did with Achtung Baby and Zooropa.  For me it was their most creative period artistically.  I loved 360, but Zoo definitely topped it for me.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 29, 2011, 01:24:13 PM
At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.


 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: HEY!youtwo! on July 29, 2011, 06:41:00 PM
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At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.


 

I have no clue how old you are, but you sound like every other american high schooler who discounts U2 automatically due to... their age

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were being a little sarcastic though  ;)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 29, 2011, 06:45:23 PM
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At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.

I have no clue how old you are, but you sound like every other american high schooler who discounts U2 automatically due to... their age

Do I really sound like an American high schooler?

Quote
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were being a little sarcastic though  ;)

If there's one thing I abhor, it's sarcasm.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: HEY!youtwo! on July 29, 2011, 06:49:09 PM
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At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.

I have no clue how old you are, but you sound like every other american high schooler who discounts U2 automatically due to... their age

Do I really sound like an American high schooler?

Quote
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were being a little sarcastic though  ;)

If there's one thing I abhor, it's sarcasm.



yes you do sound like one there... I'm so sorry  :D
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 29, 2011, 06:50:53 PM
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At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.

I have no clue how old you are, but you sound like every other american high schooler who discounts U2 automatically due to... their age

Do I really sound like an American high schooler?

Quote
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were being a little sarcastic though  ;)

If there's one thing I abhor, it's sarcasm.



yes you do sound like one there... I'm so sorry  :D

That's kinda cool.


Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: HEY!youtwo! on July 29, 2011, 06:54:48 PM
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At the time of ZooTV U2 were still young(ish) men in their early 30's, where as during 360 they are middle aged men, ergo, 360 can never be U2's best era/tour.

I have no clue how old you are, but you sound like every other american high schooler who discounts U2 automatically due to... their age

Do I really sound like an American high schooler?

Quote
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were being a little sarcastic though  ;)

If there's one thing I abhor, it's sarcasm.



yes you do sound like one there... I'm so sorry  :D

That's kinda cool.




well I am one and myself and others are probably not as cool as you think, unless you are one, then you would know... How can you really tell on the internet how old someone is?  :D
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 29, 2011, 06:59:26 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Zoo TV was revolutionary for U2 and for touring in general, but I think in terms of setlists and the efficiency of the band on stage, 360 wins.

I didn't see Zoo TV live though, so what do I know *waits for the elitist U2 fans to attack*

Im not going to attack you, but I do think if you had witnessed Zoo TV, you might have thought differently.

You know what I think of WOWY. Well it was EPIC on Zoo TV. The BTBS/RTSS/Streets segment was completely mind blowing.

Indoors, Zoo TV was monumental.

I believe that Zoo TV was monumental, insane, amazing, and all those other adjectives.  That being said, The Claw is an unprecedented marvel of futuristic technology and I believe U2 used it to perfection.

 Secondly, it's the songs that make the concert after all.  We all know that the 2000's material is the material I love the most.  During my two U2360 shows, I've seen 13 songs performed from the 2000's, more than 90's material and 80's material.  So I got to see 13 of my all time favorite songs performed as well as songs I've always adored and had prayed I'd one day see live.  (I Will Follow, UTEOTW, Zooropa, Ultraviolet, TUF, Miss Sarajevo to name a few).  I feel like these setlists over the last few weeks had a perfect balance, as opposed to the Zoo TV shows that featured up to four covers, multiple songs from Achtung Baby I don't care for, as well as a few others like When Love Comes To Town and Slow Dancing, songs I really don't like.  

U2 played more to my liking on 360 so obviously I feel like it would have been a better tour for me personally as opposed to Zoo TV.  But the real reason I feel that 360 was better was because it was just four friends on stage playing.  The Claw was spectacular, but the band overshadowed it night after night.  There was no ironic, satirizing theme to the set, nor were there any silly characters Bono played.  It was just Bono, just the band, just the songs.  The same reason why I feel like the Elevation Tour was probably their best overall tour
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 29, 2011, 07:09:15 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Zoo TV was revolutionary for U2 and for touring in general, but I think in terms of setlists and the efficiency of the band on stage, 360 wins.

I didn't see Zoo TV live though, so what do I know *waits for the elitist U2 fans to attack*

Im not going to attack you, but I do think if you had witnessed Zoo TV, you might have thought differently.

You know what I think of WOWY. Well it was EPIC on Zoo TV. The BTBS/RTSS/Streets segment was completely mind blowing.

Indoors, Zoo TV was monumental.

I believe that Zoo TV was monumental, insane, amazing, and all those other adjectives.  That being said, The Claw is an unprecedented marvel of futuristic technology and I believe U2 used it to perfection.

 Secondly, it's the songs that make the concert after all.  We all know that the 2000's material is the material I love the most.  During my two U2360 shows, I've seen 13 songs performed from the 2000's, more than 90's material and 80's material.  So I got to see 13 of my all time favorite songs performed as well as songs I've always adored and had prayed I'd one day see live.  (I Will Follow, UTEOTW, Zooropa, Ultraviolet, TUF, Miss Sarajevo to name a few).  I feel like these setlists over the last few weeks had a perfect balance, as opposed to the Zoo TV shows that featured up to four covers, multiple songs from Achtung Baby I don't care for, as well as a few others like When Love Comes To Town and Slow Dancing, songs I really don't like.  

U2 played more to my liking on 360 so obviously I feel like it would have been a better tour for me personally as opposed to Zoo TV.  But the real reason I feel that 360 was better was because it was just four friends on stage playing.  The Claw was spectacular, but the band overshadowed it night after night.  There was no ironic, satirizing theme to the set, nor were there any silly characters Bono played.  It was just Bono, just the band, just the songs.  The same reason why I feel like the Elevation Tour was probably their best overall tour

Listen man, I'm sorry, but it's not "elitist" to say you should have actually, um, attended the concert, if you're going to start doing these kind of comparisons.  It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count).
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 29, 2011, 07:13:16 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Zoo TV was revolutionary for U2 and for touring in general, but I think in terms of setlists and the efficiency of the band on stage, 360 wins.

I didn't see Zoo TV live though, so what do I know *waits for the elitist U2 fans to attack*

Im not going to attack you, but I do think if you had witnessed Zoo TV, you might have thought differently.

You know what I think of WOWY. Well it was EPIC on Zoo TV. The BTBS/RTSS/Streets segment was completely mind blowing.

Indoors, Zoo TV was monumental.

I believe that Zoo TV was monumental, insane, amazing, and all those other adjectives.  That being said, The Claw is an unprecedented marvel of futuristic technology and I believe U2 used it to perfection.

 Secondly, it's the songs that make the concert after all.  We all know that the 2000's material is the material I love the most.  During my two U2360 shows, I've seen 13 songs performed from the 2000's, more than 90's material and 80's material.  So I got to see 13 of my all time favorite songs performed as well as songs I've always adored and had prayed I'd one day see live.  (I Will Follow, UTEOTW, Zooropa, Ultraviolet, TUF, Miss Sarajevo to name a few).  I feel like these setlists over the last few weeks had a perfect balance, as opposed to the Zoo TV shows that featured up to four covers, multiple songs from Achtung Baby I don't care for, as well as a few others like When Love Comes To Town and Slow Dancing, songs I really don't like.  

U2 played more to my liking on 360 so obviously I feel like it would have been a better tour for me personally as opposed to Zoo TV.  But the real reason I feel that 360 was better was because it was just four friends on stage playing.  The Claw was spectacular, but the band overshadowed it night after night.  There was no ironic, satirizing theme to the set, nor were there any silly characters Bono played.  It was just Bono, just the band, just the songs.  The same reason why I feel like the Elevation Tour was probably their best overall tour

Listen man, I'm sorry, but it's not "elitist" to say you should have actually, um, attended the concert, if you're going to start doing these kind of comparisons.  It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count).

When I go to a concert, I want to see the band performing.  I don't want to see all these in depth themes and characters, that goes for U2 as well as any other musical artist in the world.  I'm not into those things.  I just wanna see the band members perform their songs without any distracting trimmings.  I don't need to have seen Zoo TV to say that.  I can guarantee that, if I saw a Zoo TV show, I would not have liked it as much as 360
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Grave on July 29, 2011, 07:38:33 PM
I agree with you about the whole character thing. I think it would be fine it B just was the fly then went back to his normal self.

I personally don't really like Macphisto.. I don't like my idol walking around with makeup and lipstick
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 29, 2011, 08:18:20 PM
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When I go to a concert, I want to see the band performing.  I don't want to see all these in depth themes and characters, that goes for U2 as well as any other musical artist in the world.  I'm not into those things.  I just wanna see the band members perform their songs without any distracting trimmings.  I don't need to have seen Zoo TV to say that.  I can guarantee that, if I saw a Zoo TV show, I would not have liked it as much as 360

It has nothing to do with the "theme" or "characters". Forget all that. I merely pointing out absurdity of coming on here saying that 360 is "the best U2 tour/era", and authoritatively declaring better than ZOO TV, when you weren't even at ZOO TV.  Of course, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but it might be more accurate for you to merely state that 360 is the best U2 tour you've seen and leave it at that.  Because I think you'll find if you polled 100 U2 fans who'd seen both shows, a large majority would say they preferred ZOO TV.  And, no matter what you say, if you were actually at the concert, you might feel differently.  Because you weren't, you can't know. There's an energy, a vibe at a concert that you have to be there to feel, and for each tour it's unique.  But you need to be there to feel it.  You were at a 360 show...compare that to watching the Rose Bowl DVD and you'll know what I mean.

Finally, I can't help but point out the irony in someone who loves 360 all that tech so much saying that they "wanna see the band members perform their songs without any distracting trimmings."  Because unless you had very good seats, you barely saw the band...you saw four tiny figures on a stage, a claw and a giant video screen.  I'm pretty sure that gigantic claw could be called a "distracting trimming." If just the band and the music are your criteria for a great show, then I'd suggest you have a look at the Elevation tour.

I've never seen Babe Ruth play, so that means I can't say he was the best baseball player of all time?
I wasn't alive during Lincoln's, FDR's, or Washington's presidencies, so that means I can't say they were the best presidents of all time?
I didn't see Zoo TV, so I can't say that a tour was better than it?

To say my opinion is wrong because I wasn't around during Zoo TV is absurd. 

But you're right in terms of polling people about Zoo TV.  Most people who saw Zoo TV became fans around the Achtung Baby era, so there is a deep emotional connection to it, inherently creating bias.  It was All That You Can't Leave Behind that made me a fan, not No Line on the Horizon before you try to turn that argument against me  ;)

The Claw is not a distractive trimming, as like I said, the star of a 360 show is clearly the band as the band has played with an energy and cohesiveness that even the staunchest of Zoo TV supporters couldn't deny.

And you don't have to think as you look at The Claw.  It's just there to enhance the songs and create more space for fans.  I feel like you had to think about the meaning of Bono's characters/speeches during Zoo TV.  One shouldn't have to think at a concert.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 29, 2011, 08:23:15 PM
GavinTuesday, I wasn't there for D-Day or Gettysburg but I can safely draw conclusions from the history books enough to state that they were both epic, terrible battles.  I agree that it's hard to judge what it was LIKE to be at a particular event without having been there, but I don't think this invalidates someone's opinions or analysis.

Also, there are MANY U2 fans on this site who missed the Boy, October, War, TUF, TJT, ZOO TV, PopMart, etc. tours, and probably some who saw U2 live for the first time during the 360 Tour.  There's plenty of information and rock and roll history out there to be researched that would allow one to come to a conclusion to base their opinion on. 

I'm not saying they would necessarily be right, but they would still be able to make valid observations and conclusions.



 

 

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 29, 2011, 08:34:18 PM
Saw them both.

Not even close.

Zoo by miles and miles.

Technology is better on 360 ? Yeah, so what ? That's like preferring Phantom Menace over Return of the Jedi because it had better CGI.

And the songs were played and sang much better back then.

360 is probably the worst tours of u2 I've seen in person, and I've seen them all bar Lovetown.





Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Archie_bronson on July 30, 2011, 02:20:30 AM
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Saw them both.

Not even close.

Zoo by miles and miles.

Technology is better on 360 ? Yeah, so what ? That's like preferring Phantom Menace over Return of the Jedi because it had better CGI.

And the songs were played and sang much better back then.

360 is probably the worst tours of u2 I've seen in person, and I've seen them all bar Lovetown.







Agreed - 360 is just big and not much else. Zoo had some amazing ideas and concepts. 360 is the worst tour they've done IMO, worse even than Vertigo.
Elevation was great though
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 05:13:37 AM
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GavinTuesday, I wasn't there for D-Day or Gettysburg but I can safely draw conclusions from the history books enough to state that they were both epic, terrible battles.  I agree that it's hard to judge what it was LIKE to be at a particular event without having been there, but I don't think this invalidates someone's opinions or analysis.

Also, there are MANY U2 fans on this site who missed the Boy, October, War, TUF, TJT, ZOO TV, PopMart, etc. tours, and probably some who saw U2 live for the first time during the 360 Tour.  There's plenty of information and rock and roll history out there to be researched that would allow one to come to a conclusion to base their opinion on.  

I'm not saying they would necessarily be right, but they would still be able to make valid observations and conclusions.



 

  



Prof, I didn't say it "invalidated" their opinion (or that the opinion was "wrong")..but I am saying that it undermines (I'll use your word here) the credibility of the opinion, because it's not based on all the facts. There are degrees of "validity".  I said multiple times that what we think of all their music and tours is all just opinion.  In this case, however, I just think it's a bit smug to authoritatively declare 360 better not even having been to the ZOO TV show.  Yes, one who hasn't been to both shows can make "conclusions and observations"...but not doesn't necessarily mean their valid.  I'd never question the opinion of someone who'd been to both shows and just preferred 360, that would be ridiculous, give me some credit.  But in order for me to really give that opinion any weight, I'd expect the person to have, um, actually been at both shows.

I think you know your historical examples really don't hold up.  Saying you know what the ZOO TV tour is all about because you've seen the DVD is kind of like saying you know what it's like to be in war because you've seen Saving Private Ryan, or even actual news reel footage...or that you know what the horror of Gettysburg is like because you've read a book or seen the movie.  Imagine someone who fought in Iraq telling someone who fought in  Vietnam that Iraq was "worse" because, even though he wasn't in Vietnam, he saw Platoon and watched news footage and knew what it was like.  Extreme examples, yes, but you brought up the history analogies, and the point is there's nothing like the real thing.  If watching the DVD was anywhere close to the same experience we'd all just buy DVD's, skip the traffic and watch the concerts with a front row seat in the comfort of our own homes.

Or what about travel?  We've all seen pictures of the Grand Canyon...but have you been there?  Until you've actually seen it, you just can't understand what it's like to see that spectacular natural wonder laid out before you.  We've all seen movies and pictures with Red Square, but until I stepped into it the first time I had no idea how massive it is. What would you think if someone who had been to Yosemite but had only seen pictures of the Grand Canyon declared Yosemite to be more spectacular? What if they said "I've seen the pics, and Grand Canyon is just a big hole in the ground, I'm not into holes" What would you say to that person?  Would you perhaps say you really need to see it for yourself to judge?  

I'm sorry, some opinions are indeed more "valid" than others.  If you were trying to decide whether to go to the beaches of Tahiti or Fiji, and you ask two of your friends, whose opinion is more "valid"...someone who's actually been to both places, or someone who's been to Tahiti but only seen pics and video of Fiji? Both are entitled to their opinions, of course, but are you going to give equal weight to those opinions?  What if the person who'd only seen pics of Fiji declared Tahiti to be better?  What would you say to that person? If seeing videos and pics were an accurate, and whole, representation of the experience we'd get actually going there no one would ever leave their living room and the travel industry would go bust overnight.  There's a reason travel guides are written by people who have actually been there.

What about art?  I'm sure you've seen pictures of the Mona Lisa...have you been to see it in the Louvre?  Is it the same?  Almost every painting you can find in a museum you can also find in a book or online...does that mean you don't go to the museum?  Is the experience of seeing a picture of a painting the same as seeing the real thing?  Can you see every detail of the brush strokes, the texture, the subtlety in lightning, as well as you could see them in a picture?  Ask anyone who's really into art about their emotional reaction seeing a favorite painting in person for the first time.

I've been to Tahiti, and Fiji, and the Grand Canyon, and Yosemite, and Red Square, and the Louvre.  I can tell you, no picture or video of any of those places does them justice.  I haven't, however, been to the Bahamas, so I wouldn't presume to say that the beaches in Fiji are better than those in the Caribbean, even  though I've seen pics, videos and Pirates of the Caribbean.   I could, of course, make an opinion based on my incomplete experience...but how "valid" (again, to use your word) would that be?

How much validity would you give to a critic who reviewed the 360 Rose Bowl show but only watched the internet simulcast?  

Really, the list of examples are endless.  Contrary to the last line in your post, there really aren't "right" opinions (or wrong ones), merely degrees of how informed those opinions are by fact, education and experience. And this isn't about what I think of either tour. If someone who didn't see 360 told me ZOOTV was better I'd say the same thing.

Now what you can do is compare the Sydney ZOO TV DVD and the 360 Rose Bowl DVD and make an educated comparison, and I'd have no problem with that. But when you compare seeing 360 LIVE with ZOO TV on DVD....it's apples and oranges and of course you're going to like 360 better.  Again, I'm not saying the opinion is "wrong".  Someone can say Transformers has more literary merit than Hamlet and their opinion is not "wrong". I would say, however, that opinion would be suspect.

In this case, watching concerts on DVD is not necessarily better than the real thing.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 06:26:05 AM
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I agree with you about the whole character thing. I think it would be fine it B just was the fly then went back to his normal self.

I personally don't really like Macphisto.. I don't like my idol walking around with makeup and lipstick

You'll get over it. You don't like the Berlin video of One either I presume, or the Achtung Baby sleeve photographs.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 10:15:04 AM
Yes, I've seen the Mona Lisa and, to be honest, I thought it looked much better in art books, plus it was extremely hot the day I was there and very crowded and my feet hurt from walking all day.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
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Yes, I've seen the Mona Lisa and, to be honest, I thought it looked much better in art books, plus it was extremely hot the day I was there and very crowded and my feet hurt from walking all day.

Perhaps you should stay home more then. :)

At least you've actually seen the original Mona Lisa, and had a basis for comparison, then decided you liked it better in the "art books".   Thanks for proving my point. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 11:36:16 AM
Gavin, you really are a Phantom Menace.  You've proven nothing.  For example, if I had to decide today which was "better," the virtual GavinTuesday or the real GavinTuesday, I'd have to say I prefer the virtual version even though I've never met and know nothing about the real GavinTuesday.  So thank you for helping ME prove MY point. :P

It would be easier and more effective if the person who started this thread broke it down into two different categories of opinion: those based on having experienced both tours firsthand and those who didn't.  But regardless, the arguments about WHY one is better than the other will most likely be the same.  The things I loved about ZOO TV are the same things written about the tour in magazines and interviews with the band about what they were trying to do with the whole thing.  360 was a vehicle for entertainment, pure and simple and this came across in all of the interviews I read or saw with the band as well as articles about the tour. 

One needn't have attended either show to be able to make these type of deductions, but they would have to have done their research.

I wasn't able to go to the Elevation Tour due to a last minute emergency, the only tour show I missed, but I'm quite certain that ZOO TV was the superior tour based on what I'd read about it and watched online or from watching the tour DVD.  There might be a few fans on here who preferred Elevation to ZOO TV, but I doubt there are many. Regardless, if my conclusion about which was better holds some weight, even without providing support evidence, why couldn't someone else make the same conclusion about 360 vs. ZOO TV?

They'd be wrong, of course, but their opinion would be valid all the same.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2BROTHR on July 30, 2011, 11:41:23 AM
I saw them both.  Zoo TV all the way.  Yes, technology is better now..... 360 Tour is incredible.

But Zoo TV changed the game for the music industry.  It flipped U2 in another category with their reinvention of themselves.

Bono had characters.

Zoo TV - make no mistake about it.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 11:57:17 AM
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Gavin, you really are a Phantom Menace.  You've proven nothing.  For example, if I had to decide today which was "better," the virtual GavinTuesday or the real GavinTuesday, I'd have to say I prefer the virtual version even though I've never met and know nothing about the real GavinTuesday.  So thank you for helping ME prove MY point. :P

It would be easier and more effective if the person who started this thread broke it down into two different categories of opinion: those based on having experienced both tours firsthand and those who didn't.  But regardless, the arguments about WHY one is better than the other will most likely be the same.  The things I loved about ZOO TV are the same things written about the tour in magazines and interviews with the band about what they were trying to do with the whole thing.  360 was a vehicle for entertainment, pure and simple and this came across in all of the interviews I read or saw with the band as well as articles about the tour. 

One needn't have attended either show to be able to make these type of deductions, but they would have to have done their research.

I wasn't able to go to the Elevation Tour due to a last minute emergency, the only tour show I missed, but I'm quite certain that ZOO TV was the superior tour based on what I'd read about it and watched online or from watching the tour DVD.  There might be a few fans on here who preferred Elevation to ZOO TV, but I doubt there are many. Regardless, if my conclusion about which was better holds some weight, even without providing support evidence, why couldn't someone else make the same conclusion about 360 vs. ZOO TV?

They'd be wrong, of course, but their opinion would be valid all the same.




I've actually more than proven my point…you just don't want to see it.  If someone asked you whether you prefer the "real" Gavin or the "virtual" one, the only legitimate answer is..."I don't know, I've never met the real one". 

Your opinion about Elevation vs. ZOOTV is yours and you're entitled to, but I'm not going to give as much validity, or weight, to that opinion as if you'd actually seen Elevation yourself, plain and simple. I have no problem with someone saying "360 is the best U2 tour I've seen".  But saying "360 is the best U2 tour ever", without having seen the other shows, I'm sorry, is absurd.

It's one thing to say "I liked 360 set list better than the ZOOTV one", even if you hadn't attended ZOOTV.  You can read the set list without having seen either show and make that call. But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.  Again, it's your opinion, but as I've established in example after example after example, second hand knowledge is no substitute for the real thing.

You said you missed the Elevation tour (which I actually preferred to ZOOTV, but that's beside the point).  But I'm sure you've seen the DVD's from that, so I guess, by your criteria, you can say you've "seen" the Elevation tour.

We're just not going to agree on this one, no matter how many real-world examples I give you. However, might I suggest, in the future, since seeing the DVD is, apparently, even better than the real thing, you save yourself some money and traffic hassles and wait for the video for future tours….after all, it's just like being there yourself, right?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 12:05:50 PM
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It's one thing to say "I liked 360 set list better than the ZOOTV one", even if you hadn't attended ZOOTV.  You can read the set list without having seen either show and make that call. But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.  Again, it's your opinion, but as I've established in example after example after example, second hand knowledge is no substitute for the real thing.


OK, what if I have seen every tour since TJT except ZooTV, can ZooTV still be my favorite by your logic?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 12:18:00 PM
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It's one thing to say "I liked 360 set list better than the ZOOTV one", even if you hadn't attended ZOOTV.  You can read the set list without having seen either show and make that call. But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.  Again, it's your opinion, but as I've established in example after example after example, second hand knowledge is no substitute for the real thing.


OK, what if I have seen every tour since TJT except ZooTV, can ZooTV still be my favorite by your logic?

Well sure...any tour can be your "favorite", whether you've seen it or not.  I wouldn't question that, and that's not at issue. 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 12:21:45 PM
Gavin, you wrote:

Quote
But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.

But I think that ZooTV is not just my favorite, but is superior, to all other U2 tours. Why is that ridiculous?

Are you saying it's OK to prefer a tour you haven't seen, but not OK to dismiss one?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 30, 2011, 12:23:47 PM
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Gavin, you wrote:

Quote
But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.

But I think that ZooTV is not just my favorite, but is superior, to all other U2 tours. Why is that ridiculous?

Are you saying it's OK to prefer a tour you haven't seen, but not OK to dismiss one?

For once, I concur with the point Exile is trying to make  :D
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 12:25:54 PM
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Gavin, you wrote:

Quote
But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.

But I think that ZooTV is not just my favorite, but is superior, to all other U2 tours. Why is that ridiculous?

Are you saying it's OK to prefer a tour you haven't seen, but not OK to dismiss one?

For once, I concur with the point Exile is trying to make  :D

I always knew you weren't a hopeless case!

PS - I threw up in my mouth a little after quoting a lyric from '00s U2, but I'll recover....
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 30, 2011, 12:29:29 PM
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Gavin, you wrote:

Quote
But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.

But I think that ZooTV is not just my favorite, but is superior, to all other U2 tours. Why is that ridiculous?

Are you saying it's OK to prefer a tour you haven't seen, but not OK to dismiss one?

For once, I concur with the point Exile is trying to make  :D

I always knew you weren't a hopeless case!

PS - I threw up in my mouth a little after quoting a lyric from '00s U2, but I'll recover....

I appreciate the quote, Exile  :D
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 12:35:44 PM
While I have you, what's "OAP" mean?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 30, 2011, 12:42:04 PM
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While I have you, what's "OAP" mean?

obsessed and proud...I shortened it a long time ago
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 12:44:05 PM
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Gavin, you wrote:

Quote
But to come on here and say that the 360 show was "better" or "superior" without actually having been at ZOOTV, is of course ridiculous.

But I think that ZooTV is not just my favorite, but is superior, to all other U2 tours. Why is that ridiculous?

Are you saying it's OK to prefer a tour you haven't seen, but not OK to dismiss one?



I think it's OK to prefer whichever one you want for whatever reason you want.  As I said, there are no "wrong" opinions, just opinions that are more informed than others.  Actually attending a concert is a big piece of information.

It's quite another call show "inferior" or "superior" to one or more others that you haven't seen.  As I said, and pointed out with numerous examples, reading about a thing, looking at pictures, and even seeing a video is different than actually experiencing a thing for yourself.  Don't you allow that an opinion can be influenced by, even changed, when experiencing something yourself?  People who read the bible can still have an epiphany when they go to church. Someone who knows all a politicians positions can change their opinion on that person when they see them speak in person.  Look at the examples I gave to the Professor.

I'll give you two real examples from my own life.

I travel quite a bit, and my girlfriend wanted to go on a cruise.  I'd never been on a cruise, but I was sure I'd hate it.  I did all the research...read the brochure, watched the promotional videos, read reviews, talked to people who went on this cruise, and investigated it as much as I possibly could without actually going.  And I was convinced I'd  hate it.  I knew all the reasons I'd despise a cruise, and nothing on that boat was going to change it.  Well, guess what, my girlfriend prevailed (of course), we went on the cruise, and I loved it.  The things I'd thought I'd hate, I didn't, and the experience changed my opinion of cruses.  At least that one.

You don't allow that an opinion can be changed like that, by actually experiencing something for yourself?

I'll give you another example, right on point.  I saw the ZOO TV show and I loved it.  I was blown away.   Year and years later,  I watched the Sydney DVD and Bono in that gold Machpisto outfit and I thought...."What the f*** is this?  Did he do this at my show"?  I honestly don't remember it. I know when I saw it on the DVD I really didn't care for it (we agree on this point OAP).  What I do know is that if I based my opinion of ZOOTV solely on the DVD, without actually being there, I might have felt the same way OAP feels about it.

Don't you allow that had OAP actually been at the concert his opinion might be different?  I'd submit that, statistically at least, it probably would, since I think we can all agree that most people who've been to both shows prefer ZOOTV.  Now, maybe OAP still might feel the same having seen both...but we just don't know, since he didn't.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and none of them are really wrong.  But as I said, some are more informed than others, and those are the ones that I give the most credence to.  


Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 12:48:14 PM
Gavin, as Exile pointed out, you're all over the place with your logic and arguments here.  Perhaps you could rephrase in a nutshell the point you are trying to make.  You seem to have glossed over what I wrote earlier about being able to form an educated opinion through experience AND through research.  IF, though, the thread was set up to ask which show you saw live and in person was the best, then the parameters of the discussion would be clear.  Since there were no parameters given, the thread is wide open for anyone to draw their conclusions and present their opinions based on either pure experience of the tours, a mix of experience and secondhand knowledge/research, or purely based on secondhand knowledge/research.

You're right, Exile, this guy's trouble!   :o
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 12:48:56 PM
You're totally missing my point, Gav. I am not saying that a person's bad opinion could not conceivably be changed if he actually were to experience the thing he thinks he doesn't like. I am asking whether a person can think a tour he hasn't seen is superior to the ones he has.

And if so, then what does that say about the role of personal experience?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and none of them are really wrong.  But as I said, some are more informed than others, and those are the ones that I give the most credence to."

A polite but rather passive-aggressive way of saying "you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong."

 

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
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Gavin, as Exile pointed out, you're all over the place with your logic and arguments here.  Perhaps you could rephrase in a nutshell the point you are trying to make.  You seem to have glossed over what I wrote earlier about being able to form an educated opinion through experience AND through research.  IF, though, the thread was set up to ask which show you saw live and in person was the best, then the parameters of the discussion would be clear.  Since there were no parameters given, the thread is wide open for anyone to draw their conclusions and present their opinions based on either pure experience of the tours, a mix of experience and secondhand knowledge/research, or purely based on secondhand knowledge/research.

You're right, Exile, this guy's trouble!   :o

Nope. Every one of my arguments is spot on.  

But, for your benefit, my argument, in a nutshell, is that some opinions are more valid than others, and those that are based on fact, education and experience will tend to be the most valid.  Simply reading about something, or watching a video, or researching it, is an experience of a kind, but it's not as substitute for experiencing it first hand.  And, after all the research in the world, your opinion can be changed, or at least become more valid, with first hand experience.

Which part of that do you disagree with, specifically?

If you can find a single area where I've contradicted myself in this thread, I'd love to hear it.  And please, provide the exact contradictions, with my actual words.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 12:55:23 PM
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and none of them are really wrong.  But as I said, some are more informed than others, and those are the ones that I give the most credence to."

A polite but rather passive-aggressive way of saying "you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong."

 



Not at all.  Those are your words, not mine.  There are no "wrong" opinions.  As I said, some are just more informed than others.  Had OAP actually seen both shows, I'd never would have questioned what he said, because his experience would have been the same as mine.

Really, Professor..is this that complicated?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 12:57:55 PM
I've got a good example.

I WILL admit that seeing the 360 Tour live changed my perceptions of it that had been formed from reading too much about it online, in the @U2 forums, and watching too many YouTube clips.  The magnitude and beauty of it all was not conveyed properly in those tiny clips, though it WAS mentioned numerous times in articles, reviews, and forum threads.  

But I didn't leave the show thinking, "that was better than ZOO TV."  The EXPERIENCE of it did not change my thinking in that regard, it only confirmed what had been written about the 360 Tour, actually.

If I HADN'T seen the 360 Tour I'd still have the same opinion about which one measured up best (ZOO TV) and am confident that the conclusions drawn from my research and reading would have been the same either way...because even having seen the show, they are exactly the same.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 12:58:20 PM
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You're totally missing my point, Gav. I am not saying that a person's bad opinion could not conceivably be changed if he actually were to experience the thing he thinks he doesn't like. I am asking whether a person can think a tour he hasn't seen is superior to the ones he has.

And if so, then what does that say about the role of personal experience?

I'm not sure how many ways I can answer that.  A person is entitled to "think" anything he likes.  If you want to "think" a tour your haven't seen is superior to one you have, of course you "can" do that.  I merely saying that if you express an opinion on that thought, I might not tend to give it as much validity to it as I would had you actually seen the tour in question.

What does that say about the role of personal experience? It tells me personal experience informs you opinion, and makes it more valid than if you didn't have that personal experience.

Is there something controversial about that?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:01:42 PM
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I've got a good example.

I WILL admit that seeing the 360 Tour live changed my perceptions of it that had been formed from reading too much about it online, in the @U2 forums, and watching too many YouTube clips.  The magnitude and beauty of it all was not conveyed properly in those tiny clips, though it WAS mentioned numerous times in articles, reviews, and forum threads.  

But I didn't leave the show thinking, "that was better than ZOO TV."  The EXPERIENCE of it did not change my thinking in that regard, it only confirmed what had been written about the 360 Tour, actually.

If I HADN'T seen the 360 Tour I'd still have the same opinion about which one measured up best (ZOO TV) and am confident that the conclusions drawn from my research and reading would have been the same either way...because even having seen the show, they are exactly the same.



Great example.  And it's OK that your opinion didn't' change.  But I respect your opinion more, and think it's more valid, because you actually saw both shows.If you hand't seen 360, someone like OAP who loves it could come on here and say you don't know what you're missing, the youtube videos don't tell the whole story, etc.  But since you have seen it for yourself, you opinion has gained weight, and is less prone to questioning.

In this case, the experience confirmed what you already thought, and you have the experience to back up your opinion...giving that opinion more gravitas.

It's not about whether your initial opinion of 360 was right or wrong...it's about how much information you had in making that opinion.  Seeing the show in person was the best kind of information you could have to inform that opinion.   Therefore, your opinion is more "valid" having seen the show.

 Do you see what I'm getting at now?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:06:37 PM
Gavin Wrote: "...my argument, in a nutshell, is that some opinions are more valid than others, and those that are based on fact, education and experience will tend to be the most valid.  Simply reading about something, or watching a video, or researching it, is an experience of a kind, but it's not as substitute for experiencing it first hand.  And, after all the research in the world, your opinion can be changed, or at least become more valid, with first hand experience."

Gavin Did NOT Write: "...those that are based on EXPERIENCE will tend to be the most valid."  Gavin included fact and education in his thesis.  

But Then Gavin Wrote: "...reading/watching/researching" ... [are] "not a substitute for experiencing it first hand."

On one hand, Gavin, you give value to fact and research, but on the other hand you suggest that it's only with the addition of actual experience that an opinion will "at least become more valid."

Which is it, cuz you're kind of arguing for both even though you still maintain that OAP's opinion isn't entirely valid because they're lacking your third criteria.

I just think you have to narrow your thesis down to what it is you're REALLY saying, that opinions without firsthand knowledge of the topic being discussed, seemingly regardless of the topic since you mention examples from so many different areas, are less valid, if not invalid.

  
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:08:25 PM
You missed my point and seem to have overlooked the key statement of what I wrote: my opinion would be NO DIFFERENT if I hadn't seen the 360 Tour show, nor any less informed.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:11:40 PM
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Gavin Wrote: "...my argument, in a nutshell, is that some opinions are more valid than others, and those that are based on fact, education and experience will tend to be the most valid.  Simply reading about something, or watching a video, or researching it, is an experience of a kind, but it's not as substitute for experiencing it first hand.  And, after all the research in the world, your opinion can be changed, or at least become more valid, with first hand experience."

Gavin Did NOT Write: "...those that are based on EXPERIENCE will tend to be the most valid."  Gavin included fact and education in his thesis.  

But Then Gavin Wrote: "...reading/watching/researching" ... [are] "not a substitute for experiencing it first hand."

On one hand, Gavin, you give value to fact and research, but on the other hand you suggest that it's only with the addition of actual experience that an opinion will "at least become more valid."

Which is it, cuz you're kind of arguing for both even though you still maintain that OAP's opinion isn't entirely valid because they're lacking your third criteria.

I just think you have to narrow your thesis down to what it is you're REALLY saying, that opinions without firsthand knowledge of the topic being discussed, seemingly regardless of the topic since you mention examples from so many different areas, are less valid, if not invalid.

  


Ugh. I'll type this as slowly as I can.

The key word is MORE

Research, watching videos, etc=Add some validity to an opinion
Personal experience=Makes that opinion more valid
 
And no, reading/watching/research is NOT a substitute for first hand experience.  Do you disagree with that?

Had OAP not even seen the ZOOTV DVD, I'd give even less weight to his opinion.  As it is, since he's (presumably) seen the DVD, I'll give him that.  But will not give his opinion nearly the weight I would had he actually been to the concert.

Really, not that complicated.

Try again.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:13:56 PM
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You missed my point and seem to have overlooked the key statement of what I wrote: my opinion would be NO DIFFERENT if I hadn't seen the 360 Tour show, nor any less informed.



It may not have been different....but it certainly would be less informed.   Are you saying there's no more 'information' gleaned actually being at the show than watching it on youtube?  None?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:19:47 PM
I'm merely standing up for OAP, whose post you flippantly dismissed earlier with the following:

"It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count)."

You've changed some of the lyrics since that attack, but you're still singing the same song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j96TUnBBpso&feature=fvst
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 01:19:57 PM
I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?



Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:21:47 PM
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I'm merely standing up for OAP, whose post you flippantly dismissed earlier with the following:

"It's cool that you love 360, I respect that.  But since you didn't actually go to a ZOO TV show, you really have nothing to base your comparison on (and no, seeing the DVD doesn't count)."

You've changed some of the lyrics since that attack, but you're still singing the same song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j96TUnBBpso&feature=fvst

Nope.  Not at all. I may have added to the lyrics (mainly to try to explain it to you), but haven't changed them.  And it wasn't an "attack".

The only one who's making this personal, "cuz", is you.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:22:22 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
All Because Of You...

Now..."zip it."

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:24:21 PM
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All Because Of You...

Now..."zip it."



Ha!  I'm glad I'm not one of your students.  Not big on field trips I take it?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 01:24:50 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:25:17 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?

Oh. i get it it. Haha. Good one.

Worth a nomination

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Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 01:32:30 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?

Oh. i get it it. Haha. Good one.

Worth a nomination

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Whew.  I thought I was going to have to go for the trifecta and call you Alex. :)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:36:11 PM
Actually, we go on numerous field trips, and I'm glad you're not one of my students too.  But then, in the classroom, it's easier to steer conversations that stray from the initial topic when one or more individuals want to tangle about minute details unrelated to the topic at hand.  What we're doing here is "talking about talk" and talking about the tours, which is/was the intention of this thread.  

But if you want to "talk about talk" a little more, a question: since you didn't go to the War Tour, tell me your thoughts and opinions about it based on your reading and research and viewing of Blood Red Sky and/or other concert clips on YouTube.  Tell me: your basic general opinion of the tour; your perceptions of what it was like to be at a show during that tour; your opinion of how the tour ranks compared to U2's other tours; your ideas about the significance of the tour in relation to U2's career trajectory; your ideas about the possible themes and ideas explored during the tour's live shows.

Since we both probably know a lot about most of those things, the only area you'll be lacking is your personal experience of the tour.  I saw the War Tour show in Los Angeles.  After I read your essay I'll tell you if I think your opinions and conclusions are accurate appraisals and will let you know if I think your lack of personal experience of the tour lead you to less valid, less than valid, however you want to phrase it...opinions.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 01:37:13 PM
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I didn't attend a lovetown show.

I attended every other tour.

I think Zoo is better than Lovetown.

I think Lovetown is better than Vertigo or 270 360

Is that OK ?





Aw, it's OK to believe whatever you wish Neil.

Neil ?



Sorry...Geddy?

Oh. i get it it. Haha. Good one.

Worth a nomination

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Whew.  I thought I was going to have to go for the trifecta and call you Alex. :)

Do you do this in every thread ?

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Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:37:47 PM
And after that, we will BOTH zip it.   8)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:40:51 PM
Did you REALLY have to mention Return Of The Jedi in your earlier post, Alex?

THE worst Star Wars movie in the original trilogy. 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 01:43:14 PM
I hope Gavin uses the PM format for his answer as this will surely kill the thread.

Anyway, I say Zoo Tv would blow the heads of the new kids -who think 360 is the bee's knees- clean off.

It's not a fair contest of course, but Zoo TV's only worthy opponents would likely be the better shows off the War tour the TJT tour and Lovetown. The rest might come close, but not quite.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on July 30, 2011, 01:51:59 PM
Again, the MAIN reason why I know for a fact that I would have preferred 360 over Zoo TV is because of the theme of Zoo TV and the characters Bono portrayed on stage.  Nothing to do really with the music or the stage, just the whole ironic, satire filled theme with Bono portraying outlandish characters
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
I looked up the show I went to on The Unforgettable Fire Tour...they only played 15 songs.  My memory of it was that the show was great but that the majority of people sitting in the section around me and my brother seemed lethargic and just sat there...not what we were expecting after the chaos of the War Tour show we saw at the Los Angeles Sports Arena.  I guess TUF and the tour represented as big a leap for U2 and its fans as the leap from TJT to Achtung Baby in some ways.  
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 01:55:22 PM
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Did you REALLY have to mention Return Of The Jedi in your earlier post, Alex?

THE worst Star Wars movie in the original trilogy. 

Did you get the point i was making or not ?

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 02:01:59 PM
Well, OAP, Bono only really played a character in an over the top way when he was MacPhisto.  The Fly character seemed to be more of just a costume and a particular way of posing as a rock star.  I don't know if MacPhisto ever appeared on U.S. soil but at the two shows I saw, 1st leg and 3rd leg/Outdoor Broadcast, the music was given center stage even with all the screens and technology.  Oh yeah, there was also the weird "policeman" guy in the vest and hat character...does he have a name?  I never understood that part and haven't ever looked into it.  But even in that costume or character, there wasn't anything that took away from the songs...especially with that costume change coming for Bullet The Blue Sky, Running To Stand Still/Hallelujah, Where The Streets Have No Name sequence.  
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Unknown Caller on July 30, 2011, 02:04:20 PM
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Anyway, I say Zoo Tv would blow the heads of the new kids -who think 360 is the bee's knees- clean off.

It's not a fair contest of course, but Zoo TV's only worthy opponents would likely be the better shows off the War tour the TJT tour and Lovetown. The rest might come close, but not quite.

Again, you really can't rule out how much individual experiences and taste will always alter something like this. As I noted earlier in the thread, my dad enjoyed ZooTV, but certainly didn't place it in his top tier of U2 shows- when I asked him to rank them, he put Zoo TV Dublin (The broadcast night) below any of the 80s tours, PopMart Belfast and 360 Torino- hence despite having been brought up on U2, I never even knew that it was meant to be particularly good until I really sought out the Sydney DVD etc for myself. And I don't think someone who saw them in Dandelion Market in Dublin in 1979 can really be considered a 'new kid'. And I do really hate the implicit assertion by lots of people that if you don't agree with thei particular opinion, it's because you're too young, or else you're simply wrong.

I say that as someone who does think Zoo TV is probably their best tour and era

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 02:05:28 PM
Of course I got your point, JT, it was a good one and made very clearly.  You just touched on a childhood nerve that is still raw and traumatized by George Lucas' decision to move in the direction of "cute" after the cool, dark vibe of Empire Strikes Back.  Plus, I was basically pi**ed off from the start when in the first reel when they killed off Boba Fett so early in the film.  I thought for sure he was going to play an essential role in the story.  Throwing in the Ewoks, the "Darth Vader's actually a nice guy" revelation, and fireworks at the end was just rubbing salt in an open wound.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
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Of course I got your point, JT, it was a good one and made very clearly.  You just touched on a childhood nerve that is still raw and traumatized by George Lucas' decision to move in the direction of "cute" after the cool, dark vibe of Empire Strikes Back.  Plus, I was basically pi**ed off from the start when in the first reel when they killed off Boba Fett so early in the film.  I thought for sure he was going to play an essential role in the story.  Throwing in the Ewoks, the "Darth Vader's actually a nice guy" revelation, and fireworks at the end was just rubbing salt in an open wound.

Even more traumatic than Ewan macgregor and hayden christensen ?

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 02:24:24 PM
You bring up your dad again TUC... He belongs in another group of archetypal U2 fan.

I get your point, but it's pretty easy to differentiate between the quality of an intense (of course knowingly designed) high-octane rock'n'roll show with the matinee feel good playtime U2 that got up on 360 stages.

I was too young for ZooTv and had no connections to see Popmart, but 360 (the first four legs at least) never lived up to even the modest excitement of the best of rock U2 Vertigo, and even less to the lovely and intense Elevation. It did nothing to distinguish itself until they started bringing on more surprises. I never bought into the Claw hype, most likely because of how little they utilized it as a possibly symbolic design, never made much of the cathedral of sound idea... Had they merged their music and the stage  better, with some cohesive deeper content, I'd very likely would've gone to see the tour. It didn't happen.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 02:25:25 PM
Ewan McGregor was one of the very few redeeming qualities of the prequels.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 02:25:29 PM
Dude.  The sun is out here in Seattle finally.  What are you trying to do to me?  I've put those three new Star Wars movies out of my mind, to the point that I barely remember anything about them.  So in my mind, Jedi is the worst.  They killed BOBA FETT, man!
 
THEY...KILLED...BOBA...FETT.  I kept repeating this in disbelief to my brother after we saw the movie.  All he could do was nod, shake his head in disbelief himself, and say, "I know, dude.  I know."

I mentioned this on another thread:

Boy / October / War / Unforgettable Fire / Joshua Tree / Rattle & Hum = Star Wars
Achtung Baby / Zooropa / Passengers / Million Dollar Hotel / Pop = Empire Strikes Back
Spiderman = Return Of The Jedi
Behind / Bomb / Line = Phantom Menace / Clones / Etc.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 30, 2011, 02:26:20 PM
The claw WAS big and bright and shiny tho

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: u2chamonix on July 30, 2011, 02:40:39 PM
I've seen 2-4 shows on every tour since JT. Including some so called legendary shows like Slane, NY, Milano to mention a few. However, the one i missed, Lovetown, is my favourite tour. Strange but true.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 30, 2011, 02:47:36 PM
Comparing ZOO TV/AB & Zooropa to 360/NLOTH is like a Stones fan comparing Exile On Main Street/1972 North American tour to the Voodoo Lounge tour and album.



Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Unknown Caller on July 30, 2011, 03:02:27 PM
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I get your point, but it's pretty easy to differentiate between the quality of an intense (of course knowingly designed) high-octane rock'n'roll show with the matinee feel good playtime U2 that got up on 360 stages.

I was too young for ZooTv and had no connections to see Popmart, but 360 (the first four legs at least) never lived up to even the modest excitement of the best of rock U2 Vertigo, and even less to the lovely and intense Elevation. It did nothing to distinguish itself until they started bringing on more surprises. I never bought into the Claw hype, most likely because of how little they utilized it as a possibly symbolic design, never made much of the cathedral of sound idea... Had they merged their music and the stage  better, with some cohesive deeper content, I'd very likely would've gone to see the tour. It didn't happen.


Maybe, from your perspective. But if it comes down to a real concept and idea, to merging stage with content, then PopMart would destroy ZooTV any day of the week, since PopMart had a FAR clearer and more unified concept (Not to mention a better idea) and stuck to it better. Frankly, ZooTV didn't have that much more of a unified tour concept than 360- and Vertigo and Elevation definitely didn't. PopMart is the closest U2 have come to a concept tour.

Setlists are always going to be down to individual opinion, but I  think that at each stage in its development- from No Line Tour to New Songs/No Line Tour to Zoo TV revisited, 360 has been excellent. I also think that in pure performance terms, U2 since last year have been at a level they haven't in over a decade- blowing past Vertigo and Elevation without trouble. You say that there was no excitement in the first four legs- I think that the most exciting U2 have been in a very long time was easily Leg 3 of 360, from opening the leg with no less than three (by common forum opinion) brand new songs including opening the gig with one, to the spontaneous debut of Every Breaking Wave without even a soundcheck, to Mothers of the Disappeared making its first European appearances ever.

In fact, from the surprises of leg 4 to songs debuting with nary a soundcheck (Out of Control) to random closers being added on the last leg, I think it's very fair to say that 360 has a degree of spontaneity that ZooTV could never even have dreamt of. That doesn't make it a better tour- it's not. But it's one of many reasons why I don't think the comparison is as one-sided as some people pretend.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 03:04:22 PM
Excellent point about PopMart, Unknown Caller.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 03:12:05 PM
The only reason I stayed onboard this long are the surprises they introduced. That was a good thing. I think if the whole second half of the tour would've looked like the  Americas legs this year I would be more content, as I found the last few dozen gigs pretty good musically.

I did not touch on Popmart since I think it was not as great musically as ZooTV (the stale setlist didn't help, even if the songs themselves were pretty awesome) and I do think ZooTV achieved enough of the concept of media overload and manipulation to be called succesful in execution. Even the JT songs were almost fresh (as opposed to  PM) and the new material was dynamite, and they took center stage. I don't see any motivation behind 360 to be honest, and it threw me off early on.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 30, 2011, 03:16:45 PM
Zoo TV/Zooropa was all about the new music and as SatDog says, it was dynamite.

A hugely successful reinvention in terms of their stage presentation, sound, image, and music.


Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Unknown Caller on July 30, 2011, 03:18:27 PM
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The only reason I stayed onboard this long are the surprises they introduced. That was a good thing. I think if the whole second half of the tour would've looked like the  Americas legs this year I would be more content, as I found the last few dozen gigs pretty good musically.

But see, I don' follow the logic there. BY all accounts, the final leg this year has been *great*, but it has also been largely unsurprising- especially compared to the three previous legs. The South American leg, absolutely, but I wouldn't rank the debut of 'The Fly' and a setlist reshuffle to frontload the AB songs as more surprising than the debuts of Love Rescue Me, Scarlet, AIWIY and the R&H sets in Australasia, or six brand new songs, I Will Follow's debut and the return of Pride, Bad, Angel of Harlem and NYD in Europe.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 03:19:50 PM
Professor, you asked me to tell you (among other things) my "opinion of how the (War) tour ranks compared to U2's other tours; ideas about the significance of the tour in relation to U2's career trajectory; ideas about the possible themes and ideas explored during the tour's live shows."  Sounds like a term paper, and I gave up dong those after I got my Phd. :)

In any event, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've seen in those videos.  A young, idealistic band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say where the War tour "ranks" in comparison to the other tours.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but to me it's comparing apples and oranges...I wasn't there.  Ask me to compare the shows I've actually seen in person to each other, starting with TUF...that I can answer authoritatively. I'm sorry, I just can't compare some video I've seen to a live show I was actually at.  And, while I certainly could tell you something about what I think the tour means in relation to U2's "career trajectory" and the "ideas explored", this is  hardly relevant to how how much I would have enjoyed the War show had I been there, or how I would compare it to the shows I've actually been to.  A shows relative "importance" in U2 history has zero impact on my enjoyment of the show.

Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 03:33:31 PM
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But see, I don' follow the logic there. BY all accounts, the final leg this year has been *great*, but it has also been largely unsurprising- especially compared to the three previous legs. The South American leg, absolutely, but I wouldn't rank the debut of 'The Fly' and a setlist reshuffle to frontload the AB songs as more surprising than the debuts of Love Rescue Me, Scarlet, AIWIY and the R&H sets in Australasia, or six brand new songs, I Will Follow's debut and the return of Pride, Bad, Angel of Harlem and NYD in Europe.

First, I included the third leg surprises as the reason I kept following the tour, secondly Zooropa was probably more surprising to me than the acoustic songs they never managed to play live as a band (that actually pisses me off), or Stingray or even Mercy all together.

As for the AB songs, I would listen to those any day before  the five off ATYCLB. So yeah that was a foreseeable twist after news of the reissues, but it works well. The setlist lacked focus for a long time, and the AB set provides a serviceable one.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 03:41:15 PM
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I've seen 2-4 shows on every tour since JT. Including some so called legendary shows like Slane, NY, Milano to mention a few. However, the one i missed, Lovetown, is my favourite tour. Strange but true.

Yeah, Lovetown is the one tour I missed since TUF, and I would have loved to have seen that one.  The set list was a surprise every night, and I loved all the songs they were playing.  In the boots I've heard the band sounds loose, free and energized, like they've got the weight of TJT tour off their backs.  And then, of course, there's BB King.  Really wish I could have been there.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 05:04:56 PM
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Professor, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've saw in those videos.  A young, raw band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say much beyond that, including whether the War tour was any "worse" or "better" than any of the shows I saw starting with The Unforgettable Fire.  I'm really not going to get into a larger discussion on the place of that tour in U2 history, because it's irrelevant to how I would have perceived and "liked" the show had I been there. I'm not trying to be facetious, I just really can't compare War to those shows I've actually seen in person.  I could tell you what my impressions of the videos I've seen are, but it wouldn't mean much because I wasn't there. 
 
Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)



sorry to drag this up again... it typed it all then noticed you are trying to let the issue go. dont want to delete all my efforts tho so here it is.......

mate i think you could say a lot more about the differences between the two tours if you looked into it. you're right that you can't gauge the emotional impact fully without being there but this doesnt even give you much info for the tour overall. what if the night you went to was far better or worse than the rest of the tour for whatever reason. what if you had seats way at the back of a big stadium? 

 theres so much which goes into most peoples considerations about which tour was better and the personal experience from one position, on one night, of a worldwide hundred(s) night multimedia tour, has weight but in my opinion not nearly enough to be able to say you can't say which is better unless you attended.

you're opinion is clearly different and you attach the majority of you're decision making about which tour is better to this experience. as i said i think most people have many other factors they are considering equally though so this experience is much, much less crucial to them in making a call.

and hey professor, you must get tired of being asked but what are you a professor of?

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 05:13:55 PM
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Professor, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've saw in those videos.  A young, raw band with lots of energy and something to prove. But because I wasn't there, I can't say much beyond that, including whether the War tour was any "worse" or "better" than any of the shows I saw starting with The Unforgettable Fire.  I'm really not going to get into a larger discussion on the place of that tour in U2 history, because it's irrelevant to how I would have perceived and "liked" the show had I been there. I'm not trying to be facetious, I just really can't compare War to those shows I've actually seen in person.  I could tell you what my impressions of the videos I've seen are, but it wouldn't mean much because I wasn't there.  
 
Having said that, because I think this "discussion" has become more about how we judge "opinion", and the relative value of experience in forming opinion, than about U2 and their tours, and because I suspect we agree on more about this band than we disagree, and because we both obviously are U2 old timers and both know a lot about this band, and I believe we respect each other's knowledge, I think it's time to just let this one go.

I do, however, agree with you on the brilliance of The Empire Strikes Back (my favorite Star Wars movie) and the relative lameness of Jedi.  So let's end on a point of agreement, and leave it at that. :)



sorry to drag this up again... it typed it all then noticed you are trying to let the issue go. dont want to delete all my efforts tho so here it is.......

mate i think you could say a lot more about the differences between the two tours if you looked into it. you're right that you can't gauge the emotional impact fully without being there but this doesnt even give you much info for the tour overall. what if the night you went to was far better or worse than the rest of the tour for whatever reason. what if you had seats way at the back of a big stadium?  

 theres so much which goes into most peoples considerations about which tour was better and the personal experience from one position, on one night, of a worldwide hundred(s) night multimedia tour, has weight but in my opinion not nearly enough to be able to say you can't say which is better unless you attended.

you're opinion is clearly different and you attach the majority of you're decision making about which tour is better to this experience. as i said i think most people have many other factors they are considering equally though so this experience is much, much less crucial to them in making a call.

and hey professor, you must get tired of being asked but what are you a professor of?



Soapit, I can compare shows I've actually seen in person to each other, no problem. Ask me to rate the shows from TUF to 360 and I can do that (though with difficulty).
What I can't do is compare some grainy video of Under a Blood Red Sky or Rockplast and say it's better, or worse, than a show I actually attended. I just can't speak authoritatively about it, and I'm loathe to shoot my mouth off about a show I wasn't at.  I'm sure there are people who were at War and love it, and will tell you the video doesn't to justice to what they experienced.  So it's really not my place to say whether War is better, or worse, than anything I saw. I can compare 360 and ZOOTV, sure...I was at both those shows.  But all I can speak to about War is the videos I've seen.

It's not that I take merely the "emotional" experience of a show into account and nothing else.  But when someone came on here and said a show they attended was better than a show they didn't attend...that struck me as kind of odd.  
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 05:23:29 PM
i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 30, 2011, 05:28:28 PM
One thing that comes to mind though that one can judge the quality of a show relative to a tour much better through bootlegs.
I think I've seen one of the best Elevation gigs, well certainly the prettiest (Berlin, Waldbühne), but listening to the bootleg it's pretty average compared to other Elevation gigs. So personal experience will exclude the feasibility of an objective comparison.

Let's take into account the possibility of your level of excitement clouding your judgement. That is also a question of age and exposure to exciting experiences in general and personalities. For a new fan it will be the greatest thing ever. As a first time U2 gig attendee I was thinking how lame and terrible this whole "How long to sing this song" ant colony crowd singing was. I got cynical to the community feel.
The second show I went to was a special show for the band (Vertigo, Katowicze, Poland), yet I was pretty much bored by the gig. The third show I saw after a series of unfortunate occurances forcing me to watch the gig from far away despite a GA ticket was much better than the second one even considering how bad I felt about the whole experience (which led me to swear off U2 stadium shows).

So I guess you can sort of calculate your own reactions to a situation, and thus can compare different tours on a personal level balancing pros and cons, imagining sounds and the feel of a concert.
Of course from an objective perspective this whole thread doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 05:31:00 PM
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One thing that comes to mind though that one can judge the quality of a show relative to a tour much better through bootlegs.
I think I've seen one of the best Elevation gigs, well certainly the prettiest (Berlin, Waldbühne), but listening to the bootleg it's pretty average compared to other Elevation gigs. So personal experience will exclude the feasibility of an objective comparison.

Let's take into account the possibility of your level of excitement clouding your judgement. That is also a question of age and exposure to exciting experiences in general and personalities. For a new fan it will be the greatest thing ever. As a first time U2 gig attendee I was thinking how lame and terrible this whole "How long to sing this song" ant colony crowd singing was. I got cynical to the community feel.
The second show I went to was a special show for the band (Vertigo, Katowicze, Poland), yet I was pretty much bored by the gig. The third show I saw after a series of unfortunate occurances forcing me to watch the gig from far away despite a GA ticket was much better than the second one even considering how bad I felt about the whole experience (which led me to swear off U2 stadium shows).

So I guess you can sort of calculate your own reactions to a situation, and thus can compare different tours on a personal level balancing pros and cons, imagining sounds and the feel of a concert.
Of course from an objective perspective this whole thread doesn't make sense.

Sure...everything you said is spot on, I agree with all of it.  Emotions and your age, etc has a lot to do with how you viewed those shows. 360 was "missing" something for me, and perhaps the only difference is I was looking at it through older eyes. Yeah, totally subjective.  Comparing shows you were at is legitimate and everyone does it. But you're talking about shows you actually attended.  I'm simply saying that it's hard to compare a show you weren't at with one you were.  You can make the comparison, of course, but I'm going to take into account that you weren't at one of the shows in how I view your opinion.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 05:42:40 PM
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.

what if i were a botanist? theres so many aspects of the two i'd compare beyond how an apple i ate on one day and an orange i ate on another day tasted.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
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i dont think anyone's trying to compare the individual shows. they're all talking about the tours as a whole.

Right.  I'd just like you to have been to at least one show on each of the tours in question for me to give a lot of weight to what you say about those tours. I wouldn't tell you I preferred apples to oranges unless I actually tasted both apples and oranges.

what if i were a professional botanist?

 I'd trust you to tell me all about the chemical and organic composition of apples and oranges, what species and family they're from, where they grow, how they're cultivated, etc.  However, unless you actually tried both, I wouldn't give much weight to your opinion on which tasted better.  You could, of course, tell me how you think they taste based on research and anecdotal information, but you just really wouldn't know, would you?  I certainly wouldn't discount your opinion, but it would be more valid to me if you'd actually bothered to taste both fruit before telling me which one you prefer.

And yeah, the taste of the fruit can change from day to day...but at least you would have tasted them, and based your opinion at least partially on personal experience.

Of course, there are many more aspects to judging a tour beyond what you can see from actually experiencing it yourself...but if you're going to call one tour "better" than another, I think at a minimum, as a starting place and baseline, you should have actually been to the tours your talking about.  At the very least I'll give your opinion more weight that way.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 06:05:50 PM
you'd be right to, but this thread isnt just about which tasted better (experience of attending the concerts - if im following) as can be seen by the title.

even if i hadnt tasted them you wouldnt doubt my ability to compare the two species (the eras/tours overall - from the title) as i knew all that other fancy stuff.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 30, 2011, 06:18:57 PM
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you'd be right to, but this thread isnt just about which tasted better (experience of attending the concerts - if im following) as can be seen by the title.

even if i hadnt tasted them you wouldnt doubt my ability to compare the two species (the eras/tours overall - from the title) as i knew all that other fancy stuff.

Right.  The thread is about someone saying 360 is a "better" era/tour than Z00TV.  If you believe that, fine.  No problem.  You're entitled your opinion.  I'm merely saying that, if you haven't actually been to both those shows, I'm not going to give your opinion a lot of weight. Or at least I'd tend to give it more weight if you had.

Perhaps if the original person who started this thread made a case for 360 beyond "it's more high tech and sold more tickets" (paraphrasing), I would have cut him some slack and taken his opinion more seriously. But there's a concept in the law about presumptions. Someone is presumed innocent, etc.  When you have a presumption, it's up to the other side to prove that presumption wrong.  I think there's a strong presumption in the U2 fan community that ZOOTV is "better" tour/era than 360.  Now, if you disagree with that, fine.  But if you're going to then come on here and say that 360 is superior to ZOOTV,  you should really have something to back up that opinion and rebut the existing presumption...and that includes having been to at least one ZOOTV tour before you start dissing it.  Again, if you wan't to say that, you can, it's your opinion..but I'm not really going to take you seriously unless you've got something to back it up.  And that should be more than just "360 was more high tech and sold more tickets than ZOOTV" for me to take you seriously.  If you're going to start saying that ZOOTV is inferior to 360 without attending a ZOOTV show, you better show me you know WTF you're talking about before you're going even start to convince me of anything. None of the posters who have said 360 is superior have really done that, IMO.

Let's put it this way...if I come on here and say "One" superior to all other U2 songs, people may disagree, but no one is really going to take much issue with that because there's a strong presumption that One is a U2 classic and among their greatest songs. I really don't have to explain why "One" is great...everyone knows it.  If I said "Wild Honey" was their greatest song, people are going to say..."What? Why do you think that? WTF are you talking about"?  And if I want people to take my opinion seriously, I need to be prepared to explain why I think it's their greatest.  "One" carries a presumption with it that "Wild Honey" does not.  I'd submit that the presumption among U2 fans is that ZOOTV is a superior tour/era to 360, and if you want to challenge that presumption, you need to be able to say why to be taken seriously.  And, again, seeing the show is part....but not all, of that.
  
I'm not saying actually going to the show is the final, be all, end all word. The Professor said he didn't make the Elevation tour, but I'd still take his word on the merits of that show vs. some stoned "casual" fan who was there but can't remember a damn thing about it.  However, if the Professor then started dissing Elevation and telling me how inferior it was to some other tour, I'll take the fact that he didn't actually see the show in person into account when judging his opinion.

And having said that, this horse is indeed dead, and for now I think I'll leave it to rot. :)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 06:31:06 PM
yep.. fair enough.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 09:50:20 PM
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I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended. 

OK, well those red flags that Bone-o waved on the November Tour were pretty good, but the War Tour-era version of Proud was a bit weak.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 09:53:54 PM
Exile, "you're coming on a bit strong."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s&feature=related
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on July 30, 2011, 09:56:02 PM
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Exile, "you're coming on a bit strong."

If I had a nickel....
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 30, 2011, 10:02:11 PM
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But Gavin, I didn't ask you to do that assessment of U2's War Tour from the point of view of someone who WENT to the show.  I asked you to generate an educated, thoughtful analysis to see how well your conclusions from your research synced up with MY conclusions after having seen the tour AND done research/reading AND watched clips/videos/dvds of the tour.  If you're unwilling to do that, then we can't move forward here.  I'm pretty certain, though, that you would be able to draw the same conclusions I did WITHOUT having been to a War Tour show, but if you won't indulge the essay question then how will we know? 

I don't think this forum can end with a discussion of what formulates a valid/informed opinion and I don't think that's what it's really about, anyway.  But you've continued to hammer home the same point over and over again and are even now claiming that you yourself couldn't say what you thought about a tour without having seen a show from it despite your obviously well-informed dictionary/encyclopedia of U2 knowledge.  This makes no sense.

On one hand, you're presenting yourself as an informed U2 fan but on the other you're saying no I couldn't hazard a guess about that whole phase/tour of U2's career. 

There IS a whole area of study called Music History and THAT is what we're really debating about here.  Every one of us participating in this forum is weighing in on the significance of various aspects of U2's HISTORY, in this case the significance/value/quality of one tour versus another. 

I don't disagree with you that having firsthand experience of an event will give one an enhanced perspective on that event, that seems like a given that isn't even worth being debated about because it's so obvious.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that because a U2 fan hadn't experienced a particular tour that they cannot have an INFORMED opinion about it. 

There's a HUGE number of U2 fans on this forum who were born in 1983 and later and whose first awareness of the existence of U2 probably happened Achtung Baby-ish, +/- x number of years.  They may only have gotten interested in actually discussing U2 in an online forum like this circa 2000/All That You Can't Leave Behind.  I'm not about to suggest to any one of these U2 fans that their opinion about any tour they either weren't alive for or didn't attend isn't valid simply because they weren't there.

If your point is to hope for well-supported arguments that provide evidence and explanations behind opinions, I'm with you there. 

So instead of hoping you'll complete your essay assignment, I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended.  It would be cool to hear what people thought about the shows and tours that are now part of U2's mythology and legend.

 

so ..... what kind of professor are you?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 30, 2011, 10:08:11 PM
You'd have twenty-five cents at this point, I think.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 04:05:16 AM
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But Gavin, I didn't ask you to do that assessment of U2's War Tour from the point of view of someone who WENT to the show.  I asked you to generate an educated, thoughtful analysis to see how well your conclusions from your research synced up with MY conclusions after having seen the tour AND done research/reading AND watched clips/videos/dvds of the tour.  If you're unwilling to do that, then we can't move forward here.  I'm pretty certain, though, that you would be able to draw the same conclusions I did WITHOUT having been to a War Tour show, but if you won't indulge the essay question then how will we know? 

I don't think this forum can end with a discussion of what formulates a valid/informed opinion and I don't think that's what it's really about, anyway.  But you've continued to hammer home the same point over and over again and are even now claiming that you yourself couldn't say what you thought about a tour without having seen a show from it despite your obviously well-informed dictionary/encyclopedia of U2 knowledge.  This makes no sense.

On one hand, you're presenting yourself as an informed U2 fan but on the other you're saying no I couldn't hazard a guess about that whole phase/tour of U2's career. 

There IS a whole area of study called Music History and THAT is what we're really debating about here.  Every one of us participating in this forum is weighing in on the significance of various aspects of U2's HISTORY, in this case the significance/value/quality of one tour versus another. 

I don't disagree with you that having firsthand experience of an event will give one an enhanced perspective on that event, that seems like a given that isn't even worth being debated about because it's so obvious.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that because a U2 fan hadn't experienced a particular tour that they cannot have an INFORMED opinion about it. 

There's a HUGE number of U2 fans on this forum who were born in 1983 and later and whose first awareness of the existence of U2 probably happened Achtung Baby-ish, +/- x number of years.  They may only have gotten interested in actually discussing U2 in an online forum like this circa 2000/All That You Can't Leave Behind.  I'm not about to suggest to any one of these U2 fans that their opinion about any tour they either weren't alive for or didn't attend isn't valid simply because they weren't there.

If your point is to hope for well-supported arguments that provide evidence and explanations behind opinions, I'm with you there. 

So instead of hoping you'll complete your essay assignment, I'd like to invite all @U2'ers who didn't attend either the Boy, October, War, Unforgettable Fire, etc. tours to weigh in with their thoughts about them without having attended.  It would be cool to hear what people thought about the shows and tours that are now part of U2's mythology and legend.

 

Since you were smart enough to delete this post, I'll be gracious enough to not respond.

"Essay Assignment"  LOL.

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so ..... what kind of professor are you?

I'd like to know that as well. :)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 31, 2011, 11:52:26 AM
Hi Gavin,

Oh, I didn't think you'd read that as you usually respond post haste.  I only deleted it after noticing that I'd missed your earlier post in which you began to assess the War Tour but then quickly threw up the white flag of surrender (appropriate) and conceded the debate. 

But since you actually read it (and reposted what I'd deleted somehow...not cool, man, not cool at all) and were off to a good start with your analysis of the War Tour, it would be great if you went on and wrote a few further paragraphs.  C'mon, indulge us.  This was a great beginning and an accurate assessment so far.  I was looking forward to reading more because you were on the right track.

"In any event, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've seen in those videos.  A young, idealistic band with lots of energy and something to prove..."

I'm pretty sure you already sensed, though, based on what you began to write, the obvious conclusion that one CAN create and educated and informed analysis/opinion about a tour without having attended its shows, especially when one has visual/video evidence to work with and years and years of analysis about the band and its history...and tours.

Anyway, it'll be a bore for the rest of those on the thread to read much more of this debate, though I AM arguing for the validity of the ideas of many individuals on @U2 and fighting for my fellow U2 fans, but after you turn in your essay, we can quickly all grade it and move on to debating how it's possible for you to not like 29% of U2's album songs...and I'll return the favor in trade & tell you my own U2 stories in response to your entertaining list some pages back. 

Cabiche?  Cabiche.

 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: bangandclatter on July 31, 2011, 12:19:27 PM
A spirited debate indeed. I've poured gasoline on a fire here...the reason I felt the need to say this is because even amongst U2 fans, there's too much "yea but they were better back during so n so time" kind of attitudes. The band is firing away on all cylinders-this tour was absolutely incredible and I think it's not being appreciated at the present time as it will once U2 is no more. This is a tour (like zoo, popmart) that will transcend U2 history, and be a pertinent part of all of rock/popular music history (ie I anticipate there will be an addition to the rock n roll hall of fame related to 360).

So-these tours cannot be compared apples to apples. I'm just sick of hearing about Irish Americans who haven't been back to their country in 20 or 30 years....oops, wrong frustration.

This was an exciting tour to be a U2 fan. This was a spectacle. And I'm gonna miss it.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 31, 2011, 12:29:16 PM
"The band is firing away on all cylinders"

I'd say closer to running on empty

But hey, the Claw is big bright and shiny !!!!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 31, 2011, 12:34:09 PM
But, bangandclatter, if you had two doors to choose from and behind one door was a time machine to a ZOO TV show and behind the other door was a time machine to a 360 Tour show, which one would you choose, and why (other than simply saying you liked it)?  That's basically what the essence of this thread is about, I think.  I agree it was a cool tour and the show I saw blew my mind, but in the end I felt like I had been more to a purely entertainment spectacle and not the assault on the senses and sensibilities that was ZOO TV.  That being said, there hasn't been one U2 show I didn't enjoy and think was great and that didn't leave me feeling pumped up for days afterwards.  They really bring it.  I really wish they'd let certain songs go, though, and I hope they never tour again with such a decadent stage, excuse me, THREE stages that cost $750,000 A DAY to maintain.  Every time I heard that or thought about it I felt a little sick.  
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: An Cat Dubh on July 31, 2011, 12:39:48 PM
I originally posted this in the "360 tour love-fest" thread.........and of course got lambasted for it!!

I could not be bothered creating a thread for it, but this is what I wrote:

I have to say that I am disappointed. Disappointed because that 360 gets so much love. U2 Have done SO much better than this in the past, and as this new, younger generation of fans 'spread the word' I fear that the U2 of epic greatness will be forgotten forever.

The raw energy of the first few tours - a REAL band making REAL music, performing out of their skins every night to gain notoriety.

War Tour - watch the Red Rocks concert.

The Unforgettable Fire Tour - taking experimental music on the road, making the jump from theaters to arenas - oh my, the passion in those shows (see the Dortmund boot)

The Joshua Tree Tour - the Paris show springs to mind - anyone who says that With Or Without You is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!

LoveTown - about 7 different setlists, completely different, rotated night after night.

Zoo Tv - the BEST concert tour in in history (imho), the MOTHER of all re-inventions, and the MOST exciting time to be a U2 fan. Period. And, anyone who says that Ultravolet is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!

PopMart - the USA just didn't get it, but the rest of the world most certainly did. Most definitely NOT the disaster Pop haters, and U2 themselves, make it out to be. Epic.

Elevation - an arena tour done perfectly - ok the material form the most recent album was not the best (imho) - but the intimacy and energy at the shows was amazing, and after 9/11, spiritually uplifting.

Vertigo - not quite as good as Elevation, but ok.

So, I would rank EVERY tour, except Vertigo, above 360. Zoo TV, being the absolute best!

Im sorry, I probably should not have posted this in this thread, but I just had to. 360 is not, and should not be remembered as U2 at their best live.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: ryanm on July 31, 2011, 12:47:37 PM
ZOO TV was unlike (and still is) any other tour they've ever done.  It wasn't just a concert; it was a narrative experience.  The visuals, Bono's personas, and the order in the set list all contributed to make ZOO TV a hybrid project unlike anything else in the history of Rock 'n Roll.

Sure, 360's technology is better, but this tour did not have the same elements as the ZOO TV tour.

ZOO TV still reigns (and forever will) as U2's greatest tour.

That being said, I loved the show I saw earlier this year and the tour has been phenomenal.  I only wish I would have been old enough to see ZOO TV live and really appreciate it.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 12:59:04 PM
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Hi Gavin,

Oh, I didn't think you'd read that as you usually respond post haste.  I only deleted it after noticing that I'd missed your earlier post in which you began to assess the War Tour but then quickly threw up the white flag of surrender (appropriate) and conceded the debate.  

But since you actually read it (and reposted what I'd deleted somehow...not cool, man, not cool at all) and were off to a good start with your analysis of the War Tour, it would be great if you went on and wrote a few further paragraphs.  C'mon, indulge us.  This was a great beginning and an accurate assessment so far.  I was looking forward to reading more because you were on the right track.

"In any event, I haven't seen any of the War tour shows in person, just the Under a Blood Red Sky DVD and that concert from Germany (Rockplast?). I enjoyed everything I've seen in those videos.  A young, idealistic band with lots of energy and something to prove..."

I'm pretty sure you already sensed, though, based on what you began to write, the obvious conclusion that one CAN create and educated and informed analysis/opinion about a tour without having attended its shows, especially when one has visual/video evidence to work with and years and years of analysis about the band and its history...and tours.

Anyway, it'll be a bore for the rest of those on the thread to read much more of this debate, though I AM arguing for the validity of the ideas of many individuals on @U2 and fighting for my fellow U2 fans, but after you turn in your essay, we can quickly all grade it and move on to debating how it's possible for you to not like 29% of U2's album songs...and I'll return the favor in trade & tell you my own U2 stories in response to your entertaining list some pages back.  

Cabiche?  Cabiche.

  

What, more?  The 360 tour just ended man, it's an emotional moment for all U2 fans...can't you just let this one go?

"Fighting for my fellow U2 fans."  "How is it possible you don't like 20% of U2's songs". Did you write that stuff with a straight face?  What is this, if I don't like X % of U2 songs I'm out of the club?  Do I get to keep my card?

White flag of surrender?  Huh? Is that how you think you win debates?  By conceding for the other person?

I haven't conceded anything....except this.  I'll concede that you either don't understand what I'm saying (despite my patience and numerous examples), or you do understand it, but are being intentionally obtuse, I'm which case I can only conclude that you're simply here to argue.  

If you do understand, I'm really not interesting in arguing this point anymore....the truth is I got bored w/it a while ago.  If you don't understand, I really have no desire to continue to try to explain it to you.

This started because...why? I made a throwaway comment that someone who says 360 is better than ZOOTV should probably have seen the ZOOTV tour to say that (I also said he should have grounds more relative than better tech & ticket sales for thinking so).  So we disagree.  I'm not sure what your point is here, really.  Why can't you let this go? I'm fairly certain OAP and bangandclatter and take care of themselves, Prof.  After all, my comments were directed at them, not you.  They aren't throwing a fit about it, and I'm sure I'll see them in other threads and we'll all have a beer.

As far as your passing out U2 essay assignments, I originally gave you the benefit of the doubt on that one because I thought you must be kidding...no one could be that pompous.  But, sadly, apparently you weren't kidding, in which case I'll have to politely decline your offer to have me write an essay on the War tour for you.  Music for me is not an academic exercise, and even if it was, I gave up writing essays after my second second graduate degree (one being a Phd, and since I've taught at the Uni level, I guess that makes me a Prof as well, Prof). :)

Or, if you really want that essay, tell you what.  You respond to every example I gave, every question I asked (you'll find them b/c they ended with a "?") in this thread and then I'll think about that essay.  Fair?

Dude, seriously...what is it with you?  We're not going to agree on this one, so let it go.   It's OK if we don't agree.  Compromise is not a dirty word. I'm sure someone said that once.  I really don't think our fellow U2 fans want to hear us hashing this out anymore.  I think I've tried to end this three times now.  I complimented your U2 knowledge in several posts in this thread, and tried to extend the olive branch more than once...you just won't take it.  So be it man. You know, I've been stuck home the past ten days recovering from knee surgery, and endlessly trying to explain all this to you, and all this bickering is NOT helping my healing process, bro.  And then you had to go make it personal. It's not. If making my points forcefully and with logic and examples means I'm "coming on strong" (as you've repeated, repeatedly), so be it.  But let's not make it personal. I'm a nice guy, but you're starting to make me grumpy.

Seriously, there's no need to respond....though something tells me you will anyway, let's see if you can help yourself.  If not, please, feel free to have the last word.

Love & Peace...or else.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: honey_child on July 31, 2011, 01:34:54 PM
I swear, our fandom's motto should be "stop having fun, guys".  ::)
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: bangandclatter on July 31, 2011, 01:40:28 PM
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But, bangandclatter, if you had two doors to choose from and behind one door was a time machine to a ZOO TV show and behind the other door was a time machine to a 360 Tour show, which one would you choose, and why (other than simply saying you liked it)?  That's basically what the essence of this thread is about, I think.  I agree it was a cool tour and the show I saw blew my mind, but in the end I felt like I had been more to a purely entertainment spectacle and not the assault on the senses and sensibilities that was ZOO TV.  That being said, there hasn't been one U2 show I didn't enjoy and think was great and that didn't leave me feeling pumped up for days afterwards.  They really bring it.  I really wish they'd let certain songs go, though, and I hope they never tour again with such a decadent stage, excuse me, THREE stages that cost $750,000 A DAY to maintain.  Every time I heard that or thought about it I felt a little sick.  

I'd take the time machine to one of the zoomerang shows, no doubt. A younger band completely changing its image in brilliant context is much more appealing than this last tour (which by the way, i could easily be convinced the 360 stage is a prototype for a time travel machine)

What was the inflation adjusted cost to put zooTV together? the cost shouldn't bother fans of this band. Everything has and always will be big and over the top.  Innovation costs $$$$.  U2 is the only band that can get away with BS like zoo, popmart, 360, so why not? Sure the stones can and will most likely put on a production similar in size, but no way could they do it under a space ship.  Muse could-but could not generate mass appeal like we saw with 360.  

And as far as decadence goes-using cars to light the stage is fairly decadent, among other things...
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 31, 2011, 01:55:54 PM
Well those cars cost around $150-250 depending on the state they were in... (I doubt they were working cars to begin with) having them turned into pieces of art must have been more expensive. IIRC the reported daily cost of ZooTV was around $200-250k for the stadium setup.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 02:13:49 PM
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Well those cars cost around $150-250 depending on the state they were in... (I doubt they were working cars to begin with)

Of course none of the cars worked, they were all lemons.   :P

(sorry)

(ducks)

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 31, 2011, 02:27:53 PM
The cars were definitely not ducks, or newts at that, or if they were, they got better by the start of tour.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 02:31:39 PM
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The cars were definitely not ducks, or newts at that, or if they were, they got better by the start of tour.

What about very small rocks?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 31, 2011, 02:55:32 PM
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Zoo Tv - the BEST concert tour in in history (imho), the MOTHER of all re-inventions, and the MOST exciting time to be a U2 fan. Period.

Elevation - an arena tour done perfectly - ok the material form the most recent album was not the best (imho) - but the intimacy and energy at the shows was amazing,


This sums things up nicely.


Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 03:05:20 PM
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I originally posted this in the "360 tour love-fest" thread.........and of course got lambasted for it!!

I could not be bothered creating a thread for it, but this is what I wrote:

I have to say that I am disappointed. Disappointed because that 360 gets so much love. U2 Have done SO much better than this in the past, and as this new, younger generation of fans 'spread the word' I fear that the U2 of epic greatness will be forgotten forever.

The raw energy of the first few tours - a REAL band making REAL music, performing out of their skins every night to gain notoriety.

War Tour - watch the Red Rocks concert.

The Unforgettable Fire Tour - taking experimental music on the road, making the jump from theaters to arenas - oh my, the passion in those shows (see the Dortmund boot)

The Joshua Tree Tour - the Paris show springs to mind - anyone who says that With Or Without You is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!


LoveTown - about 7 different setlists, completely different, rotated night after night.

Zoo Tv - the BEST concert tour in in history (imho), the MOTHER of all re-inventions, and the MOST exciting time to be a U2 fan. Period. And, anyone who says that Ultravolet is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!

PopMart - the USA just didn't get it, but the rest of the world most certainly did. Most definitely NOT the disaster Pop haters, and U2 themselves, make it out to be. Epic.

Elevation - an arena tour done perfectly - ok the material form the most recent album was not the best (imho) - but the intimacy and energy at the shows was amazing, and after 9/11, spiritually uplifting.

Vertigo - not quite as good as Elevation, but ok.


So, I would rank EVERY tour, except Vertigo, above 360. Zoo TV, being the absolute best!

Im sorry, I probably should not have posted this in this thread, but I just had to. 360 is not, and should not be remembered as U2 at their best live.

Zoost, I want to bookmark this post, because it pretty accurately sums up how I feel about most of these shows.   I highlighted the parts I particularly agree with.

I think I probably like ATYCLB a bit more than you (your comments on the Elevation tour were spot on however) and liked Popmart a bit less than you.

I've seen all these shows except War & Lovetown...and I would REALLY loved to have seen Lovetown. Damn, all those set lists.  They were on fire then.

As far as 360 goes, like you, I'll repeat what I said elsewhere...I saw 360 twice, and while there were certain, fleeting, quintessential "U2 moments" I thought that something was missing at both the shows I saw.  Who knows, perhaps all that was missing was my younger self, but those shows definitely felt a little more hollow than what I'd seen before. It seemed to me at certain points in the show I swear I could actually see Bono trying to create some of those magical (for lack of a better word) moments U2 concerts are known for.  Whereas previously those moments came effortlessly and spontaneously.  I think someone once said "the moment you try for genius you've failed".  Don't get me wrong....I thoroughly enjoyed 360, and those shows were admittedly quite spectacular in every measurable way. (that first sight of the Claw as you come out of the tunnel to get to your seats is pretty impressive...I felt the same way as I did the first time I saw Red Square and the Grand Canyon..though obviously on a different scale).  But the Claw, that huge screen and all those lights can only take you so far.  Any band with the resources can create a show that technologically spectacular. What separates U2 is their music and the sprit they conjure up when the stars align.

Fookin' Great post Zoost
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 31, 2011, 03:08:29 PM
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The cars were definitely not ducks, or newts at that, or if they were, they got better by the start of tour.

What about very small rocks?

If they float your boat...
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 03:09:24 PM
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The cars were definitely not ducks, or newts at that, or if they were, they got better by the start of tour.

What about very small rocks?

If they float your boat...

Witch!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 31, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
The Trabant cars were just the outer shells, obviously, once they were used as part of the stage.  One of them went up for auction on ebay a few years back.  Don't remember how much it sold for, but that would have been a cool bit of U2 memorabilia to own.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 31, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
Well, Gavin, I'll just move to the furthest end of the Banana then to avoid prosecution.

You can still find Trabants in former East-block countries. Some even running. Could likely get it for 200 USD and it would be a nice project to paint/cover it with the preferred artwork. We used to have one for my mother to practice driving without endangering our proper car... :-)

One of my fave venues has a big garden and they turned a Trabbi painted with the Brazilian flag into a table-box, by turning the front seats around.
It would be the coolest ever, were it not for the overenthusiastic party-faces who most likely vomited inside it... Oh the golden years...
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on July 31, 2011, 03:36:59 PM
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I'm not sure how you were able to re-post a deleted comment. Kind of creepy.




Might want to do your "research" before you say stuff like that, Prof.

Soapit "posted" your comment when he asked you what kind of a professor you were.  Take a look for yourself (reply #116), I replied from that.  So apparently someone saw and responded to your comment before you deleted.  And, as you point out, the whole of my comment was to say I wouldn't respond.  Oh, and to join soapit in asking about the mystery of exactly what you're a professor of.  That should have been your clue where I saw your comment. I didn't respond substantively your post precisely because you had deleted it...and I said as much.  So much for trying to be gracious.

Apology accepted.  Assuming, of course, you're big enough to apologize.  I have my suspicions....let's see if I'm right about that as well.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tumbling Dice on July 31, 2011, 03:38:10 PM
I still don't know what The Professor is a professor of.  ???


Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on July 31, 2011, 03:43:51 PM
Only the Professor himself knows and he posts in mysterious waves...

For a moment I was thinking maybe The Professor is in fact Gavin, and he just tries to pull of some full forum-member persona reinvention a la Achtung Baby era U2, and turn into the other side of the coin, personality wise...  Hmm.

I will pull this off just for fun at some point.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 31, 2011, 04:31:19 PM
Oh, SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-*

I deleted my mistaken post, so why don't you delete your response to it and we'll start over.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 31, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
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Oh, SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-*

I deleted my mistaken post, so why don't you delete your response to it and we'll start over.

No, don't start over. End it. Now.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: aarong on July 31, 2011, 04:46:10 PM
no comparison. U2 waliking on stage, soing a best of tour ending in MoS (360), compared to a huge entrance, a persona change half way though. No comparison. Zoo TV was the pinace U2 have ever got in terms of performance. Based purely on performance, paying good money in not just to hear a few of your songs just played, that is
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on July 31, 2011, 04:46:56 PM
Don't you have some moldy old Rush records to dust off, JT?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: JTBaby on July 31, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
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Don't you have some moldy old Rush records to dust off, JT?

And cue 30000 word response from GT, ad nauseum

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on July 31, 2011, 08:44:23 PM
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I'm a professor of Geriatric Medicine.  How else would I feel so comfortable arguing with a bunch of grumpy old U2 & Rush fans?

so where are these field trips to you go on?
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: gnmmet on July 31, 2011, 09:54:26 PM
Zoo Tv was better, but 360 wasn't bad. Personally I prefer the 360 performances to those from any of the tours in the 80s. The mullet, high heeled boots, their mannerisms on stage and Bono's old voice kinda put me off.

U2 may have done better, but not by a ridiculous amount. Ultimately what counts is, do people feel satisfied leaving the gigs? I think most if not all did.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on August 01, 2011, 11:16:39 AM
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I'm a professor of Geriatric Medicine.  How else would I feel so comfortable arguing with a bunch of grumpy old U2 & Rush fans?

so where are these field trips to you go on?

I'm not sure we're going to get an answer on that one either...his original "Professor of Geriatric Medicine" comment has mysteriously been deleted as well.

That's quite a disappearing act...the Professor does indeed move in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on August 01, 2011, 04:49:17 PM
Unless we're all gonna meet for pints to discuss U2 in person, personal information seems irrelevant, and besides, I'm not The Professor anymore, I'm...The MacFessor, in the spirit of this ZOO TV forum.  

Why don't you ask Exile where he's been exiled from or what breed SatelliteDog is?

On another note, I don't know about the rest of you, but now that the tour has ended I feel strangely detached and almost indifferent about anything U2-related, or perhaps just kind of empty after the frenzy of topics and U2 news the past few months (and LACK of NEW news).  It's kind of a good thing the tour has ended; now U2 can get back to work.  

I don't think the band (or any band these days) can afford to go away for as long as they have in the past.  In the old days, a band could go away for four years and be able to return to a music industry relatively unchanged from how they left it.  If U2 are smart, they'll recognize that they have to return to working like they used to up until Rattle And Hum...faster.  I mean, think of it, from 1980-1988, they produced Boy (1980), October (1981), War (1983), Under A Blood Red Sky, The Unforgettable Fire (1984), Wide Awake In America, The Joshua Tree (1987), Rattle and Hum (1988), along with tours and b-sides for each.  I think they need to put themselves back on this work schedule, though possibly without a tour for EVERY project.

Three years went by after Rattle And Hum and we got Achtung Baby (1991), followed by Zooropa (1993), Original Soundtracks (1995), and Pop (1997).  This would be my ideal schedule for them to get themselves on, but not two years from the release of No Line On The Horizon.  A surprise late 2011 album is needed, or early 2012 (Songs Of Ascent & Original Soundtracks II or something like would be cool, an interesting record that might not require a tour, but perhaps some one-off shows here and there).

After Pop, it was three years until All That You Can't Leave Behind (2000), then four years until How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb (2004), and five years until No Line on the Horizon (2009).  I don't think they can afford to operate on this type of release scheme anymore.

To somehow tie this tangent in with the thread topic, U2 needs to embrace for themselves as a band one of the ideas they were projecting to the audience via ZOO TV, the awareness of a 24 hour world of fast changes and more than a multitude of channels to surf...because the channels change even faster these days and there are more to choose from too.  I hope the band is smart enough to realize that ZOO TV has been outpaced by the new digital reality and that they're going to have to "out-ZOO" themselves to keep pace.


 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on August 01, 2011, 05:11:25 PM
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Unless we're all gonna meet for pints to discuss U2 in person, personal information seems irrelevant, and besides, I'm not The Professor anymore, I'm...The MacFessor, in the spirit of this ZOO TV forum.  

Why don't you ask Exile where he's been exiled from or what breed SatelliteDog is?


except that you specifically said you were going on field trips with your class somewhere earlier in this thread. until that point i assumed your title was nothing but an invented name like everyone else's but then it seemed you actually could be a professor which made me curious. i thought i'd ask 'professor of what' but you're geriatric medicine answer seemed like it could be you being sarcastic so i thought i'd ask a follow up question to confirm and avoid assuming it (and if you werent i was genuinely interested what a geriatric medicine field trip would involve).

you're right it is irrelevant to the topic but it didnt seem like a big deal to ask. i feel like you have taken it as more probing (and negative) than i intended it to be so if you feel its all too personal then feel free to ignore the questions (although i am now curious about the reasons behind the change to macfessor if you feel like sharing).
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on August 01, 2011, 07:47:56 PM
No, no big deal, not probing or negative at all, just prefer to remain anonymous on the forums, though I hear there's some kind of @U2 gathering in Vegas in the not too distant future.  It would be kind of cool to party with SatelliteDog and Exile and even GavinTuesday, though he might have to meet us on the strip a little later than the rest of us cuz he'll be stuck in his room for a while working on his War Tour essay.

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: soapit on August 01, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
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No, no big deal, not probing or negative at all, just prefer to remain anonymous on the forums,

no problem... tho you know this just makes people even more curious.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Professor on August 01, 2011, 07:52:08 PM
MacFessor = MacPhisto, yo!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: U2BROTHR on August 02, 2011, 07:25:49 PM
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I originally posted this in the "360 tour love-fest" thread.........and of course got lambasted for it!!

I could not be bothered creating a thread for it, but this is what I wrote:

I have to say that I am disappointed. Disappointed because that 360 gets so much love. U2 Have done SO much better than this in the past, and as this new, younger generation of fans 'spread the word' I fear that the U2 of epic greatness will be forgotten forever.

The raw energy of the first few tours - a REAL band making REAL music, performing out of their skins every night to gain notoriety.

War Tour - watch the Red Rocks concert.

The Unforgettable Fire Tour - taking experimental music on the road, making the jump from theaters to arenas - oh my, the passion in those shows (see the Dortmund boot)

The Joshua Tree Tour - the Paris show springs to mind - anyone who says that With Or Without You is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!

LoveTown - about 7 different setlists, completely different, rotated night after night.

Zoo Tv - the BEST concert tour in in history (imho), the MOTHER of all re-inventions, and the MOST exciting time to be a U2 fan. Period. And, anyone who says that Ultravolet is sung better or with more passion by Bono on the 360 tour than it was on its original tour is in my mind completely insane!

PopMart - the USA just didn't get it, but the rest of the world most certainly did. Most definitely NOT the disaster Pop haters, and U2 themselves, make it out to be. Epic.

Elevation - an arena tour done perfectly - ok the material form the most recent album was not the best (imho) - but the intimacy and energy at the shows was amazing, and after 9/11, spiritually uplifting.

Vertigo - not quite as good as Elevation, but ok.

So, I would rank EVERY tour, except Vertigo, above 360. Zoo TV, being the absolute best!

Im sorry, I probably should not have posted this in this thread, but I just had to. 360 is not, and should not be remembered as U2 at their best live.

I really like this post.  Having seen Zoo TV and onwards, my only change would be that I thought Vertigo was very "rock and roll".  By the time Love and Peace hit, it seemed quite raw.  Sure they had those LED balls on a string, but to me, it was rather stripped down with them pulling songs like The Ocean, An Cat Dubh, Gloria, and other out their back pocked.  Watch Bono hit the drums, watch Larry play keys, watch Bono fumble around with a bandana on his eyes.  So Vertigo, not as epic as Zoo or 360, still gets some props in my eyes.

But the task at hand.  Zoo TV for me was the best for shock value and reinvention.  360 was the ultimate stadium tour.....with less "gimicks" and a lot of playing.

I hope I made some sense.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on August 02, 2011, 08:23:33 PM
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No, no big deal, not probing or negative at all, just prefer to remain anonymous on the forums, though I hear there's some kind of @U2 gathering in Vegas in the not too distant future.  It would be kind of cool to party with SatelliteDog and Exile and even GavinTuesday, though he might have to meet us on the strip a little later than the rest of us cuz he'll be stuck in his room for a while working on his War Tour essay.



Hey man, I probably live 1/2 an hour from you, so you name the place and I'll buy the first round. I'll buy for SatDog as well since he's Hungarian. And as far as where I've been exiled from, my stories will take too long to tell....
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on August 03, 2011, 06:42:02 AM
:-) That would be fun, but I'll drink here in lovely old Budapest to all of your health! It would at least take two flights and over 13 hours plus airports to get to Cali.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Gavin Tuesday on August 03, 2011, 06:46:37 AM
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:-) That would be fun, but I'll drink here in lovely old Budapest to all of your health! It would at least take two flights and over 13 hours plus airports to get to Cali.

Your'e in Budapest?  Very cool, I've been there many times for work (& play).  It's my favorite Eastern European city, and I actually prefer it to Prague.  Just magnificent.  What's the name of that rock/jazz bar, lots of bands play there, where both expats and hang out?  I've got a black t-shirt from there, but right now I can't remember what the place is called...pretty famous.  It's in the 5th dist. Maybe "Fat" is in the name.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on August 03, 2011, 07:54:51 AM
Yeah well it could be Fat-Mo's Music Club/Pub?

I personally don't dig that vibe, I like the open air less tourist-trap feeling places like Szimpla, Kőleves, West Balkan, ChaChaCha etc...

Also there are
ZP Zöld Pardon (open air concert venue with loads of teenagers)
Gödör (more grown up, in the centre, good concerts, exhibitions)

Sadly it is now the time of animals more equal than others, and the right wing municipal management (and government) are closing down some of the modern left wing (what should young people be?) art based venues and collective spaces, evicting the artists from their studios and rehearsal places, both for the real estate, but mainly just to show they can do whatever they want, with arrogant glee... :-(
 
At the same time they are supporting the right and far right oriented "academy" of artists who are partially unknown, mostly old and retired and mainly unmarketable. They get 200 000 000 Forints (that's roughly 1,2 million dollars a year, plus a central representative palace as headquarters for free, when 1000$ is an average monthly wage for Hungarians)  and their abysmally tacky and kitsch work gets sent to interntional showcases. What they are doing is disgustingly obvious and shameful in most fields of life, and they just changed the constitution to serve their party in the coming years...

I'd really like to move abroad for a decade or five :-)

Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: OptimaX on August 25, 2011, 04:47:01 PM
I'm not sure this has been mentioned in this thread, but it is important to realise the following when you try to compare the ZOO TV with any other tour (with the exception of POPMART).

ZOO TV was the world's first traveling live-show by a famous band that used TV's for something else than enhancing what happens on stage. There was a concept.
360º TOUR is simply and old-fashioned rock-show with advanced technical features like a 350º degrees stage- and screen set-up. It was a visual spectacle not a conceptual.

But most importantly, Bono's characters on stage were the thing that changed everything. The Fly, Mirrorball man, Macphisto, his characters gave the show even more variety and they were all linked under the same ZOO TV theme; the overload of the media.

Therefore it is not just only U2's best era, but the ZOO TV tour has been one of the (maybe the most) revolutionary (Stadium) Tour by any artist!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Cam501 on June 19, 2014, 09:54:43 PM
I know this is an old thread but I completely agree with the conceptual tour reasoning for Zoo being better than 360.  Granted I never got to see Zoo TV live as I was just a very casual fan in 8th grade when inside broadcast came through my hometown (they didn't come back for outside broadcast unfortunately). I also missed popmart thanks to finals week as a freshman in college. I have seen 2 elevation shows, 2 vertigo shows and 1 360 show (before the back injury) though.  Having experienced the last 3 tours in person and having listened to some decent bootlegs from every tour since UF, (unfortunately I drove off with a CD case that had almost 200 CD's including about 25 U2 bootlegs on the roof of my car several years ago) I still put Zoo as one of the greatest tours from any rock band ever.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: So Cruel on June 19, 2014, 10:38:53 PM
I saw both 360 and Zoo TV multiple times. Not even close. Zoo TV was the band in their prime. 360 was a good show but Zoo TV was an all time great show.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: satellitedog01 on June 20, 2014, 02:37:33 AM
Weird that this thread got 11 pages in comments instead of a clipped grunt of something not printable. :-D
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Mr. Red on June 20, 2014, 07:38:49 AM
laughable, 360 cannot even hold a candle to Zoo Tv on every level. Delivery of songs, lacking intimacy, etc etc etc
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Runtmg on June 20, 2014, 07:41:23 PM
Okay, first things first.  A persons opinion this subject is generally a matter of opinion.  So, this is a great question that I will dig on.

How does one calculate which show is better?  Some would say that it is by attendance and receipts but I find that hard to be true because even at the time of Zoo tv the Rolling Stones were still massive draws on the road.  Many bands from the 70's could outdraw U2 in those days, for instance a Fleetwood Mac reunion was a huge draw a few years later.  If not in attendance, then certainly in average price per ticket.

Also, if you didn't see U2 live, there was no recourse except bootlegs.  No youtube nothing etc. So, we must own up to the fact that the way we evaluate and watch bands has changed, I am not sure if it is for the better. 

So, if we can not compare zootv and 360 in just pure numbers or experience, what then can we compare these two?

To that i look at the impact that it had on U2's career.  Namely, was U2 generally respected more, was there more enthusiasm for U2's brand after the tour.

To this Zoo tv wins hands down.  At the end of that tour, U2 were thought of as the Kings of Rock'n'Roll.  Yes, grunge was there but only because the boys were mid tour.  Artistically, they had pushed rock forward in an amazing way. They had reinvented themselves and had put out an album that we still talk about 20 years later.

NLOTH was not a bad album, in fact much of it is as creatively strong as AB.  The problem was two fold for NLOTH.  U2 was far too safe and corporate. Blackberry sponsorships, being criticized from the left for carbon admissions during the tour.  Bono's capitalism is the way.  Simply put, whatever craft or cred the band had was flushed.  Now they were the act you brought your kids to and bore them with stories of the Joshua Tree and Zoo tv. 

The graduation to a nostalgic act was punctuated by some surprises.  They played new songs, tried out material.  But as the tour came to a close, it was clear U2's best days were behind them.

Simply put, one tour left them ready to conquer the world, the next left them scrambling. 
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: briscoetheque on June 20, 2014, 10:26:39 PM
Or how about we assess them on which we enjoyed more?

That's what I'll go with.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Tarahumara on June 21, 2014, 12:46:08 PM
From an artistic standpoint, ZOO TV was better! Here's why...
ZOO TV (indoor leg) featured 10 out of 12 songs from the new album.
It originally had NO songs pre-UF, so they only played songs from three previous albums.
From UF, you had Pride and Bad performed nicely, in original form.
But from JT, most of the songs were vastly rearranged for the moment
(Still Haven't Found, Bullet, and Running to Stand Still), while a few (With or Without You and Streets) remained
true to form.
From R and H; Desire was super different from the album version and When Love Comes to Town was performed acoustically
in what was, at the time, a novel concept (using the B-stage).
So...out of 20 or so songs, 50% were completely new, 25% were old songs with different arrangements, and 20% old material performed with passion. Then there were a few covers. But only 4 out of 20 songs were performed in a way that people had heard before.
To me, a true artist captures the moment and this is much more "capturing the moment" than 360.
To it's credit, 360 Rose Bowl, did feature a lot of newer songs (but not 50%) and quite a bit from the 2000's, but still not as much new material as ZOO TV did at the time. And that's coming off Rose Bowl, when they still played stuff from NLOTH.

And I'm not even comparing the quality of the songs, only the amount of new or newly arranged material. So on that count, ZOO TV wins. And as much as I liked ZOO, I'd prefer to see new to old any day. For example, I may have liked 360 better if they had done 10 songs from NLOTH, rearranged stuff from the two previous albums, and played only a handful of pre-2000's material. I just hate the idea of a band looking back. Play with passion and live in the moment!
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on June 21, 2014, 05:46:21 PM
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Or how about we assess them on which we enjoyed more?

That's what I'll go with.

Not to be all objective about it (gasp!), but how about we assess them by which one had Bono hitting the notes properly?

That's what I'll go with.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: an tha on June 21, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
Zoo tv/Zooropa was like a gorgeous, sexy woman at her hottest - but also clever, funny and interesting, and a bit dangerous.

360 was like an overweight, frumpy plain Jane - with a nice but boring personality.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Messenger on June 21, 2014, 06:31:44 PM
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Zoo tv/Zooropa was like a gorgeous, sexy woman at her hottest - but also clever, funny and interesting, and a bit dangerous.

360 was like an overweight, frumpy plain Jane - with a nice but boring personality.

You didn't say which one you liked better.
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: briscoetheque on June 21, 2014, 07:37:51 PM
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Or how about we assess them on which we enjoyed more?

That's what I'll go with.

Not to be all objective about it (gasp!), but how about we assess them by which one had Bono hitting the notes properly?

That's what I'll go with.

Cmon Ex, I could go watch opera for that...
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: The Exile on June 21, 2014, 07:45:36 PM
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Or how about we assess them on which we enjoyed more?

That's what I'll go with.

Not to be all objective about it (gasp!), but how about we assess them by which one had Bono hitting the notes properly?

That's what I'll go with.

Cmon Ex, I could go watch opera for that...

Not saying hitting notes is enough, but it is necessary. For me anyway (with very rare exceptions).
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Muadib on June 27, 2014, 07:54:35 PM
ZooTV forever
Title: Re: To all those who think Zoo TV is U2's best era/tour
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on July 02, 2014, 02:18:08 AM
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360 was like an overweight, frumpy plain Jane - with a nice but boring personality.

Yeah, but she's got lots of good stories, some battle scars, and more than a few stretch marks. Lots of life lived in that frumpy plain Jane.

But just the fact that Bono pulled off the task of singing Dancing Queen, while making it sound cool, summarizes the "WOW" factor of Zoo TV. (Not to mention everything else that's already been said.)

I liked the 360 Tour because I got to share U2 with a bunch of nieces and nephews, and they had no idea what to expect.

Zoo TV will always be my favorite because I had no idea what to expect. Indoor leg was so completely different from anything they'd ever done up to that point. But the Outside Broadcast wasn't just big, it was that it had to be big. But in a way, it actually seemed more like a club with great music, great lights, and great videos. But through all that other stuff, everyone watched the DJ (the band), because that's where the real majic was happening.