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@U2 HQ => Feedback, Suggestions and Help Desk => Topic started by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 03:00:49 AM

Title: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 03:00:49 AM
Can the rules be more specific? i dont think the vague non specific nature of the way the rules are written helps in people not crossing the line. either this or can the mods be more active in letting us know what ok and whats not in reality?
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 11:04:27 AM
Yep, I'm sure the mods will be as active/vocal as we need to be in addressing things going forward. Whether it be via PM or posting in threads, we'll help however we can.

I would suggest that, maybe, if you think you're crossing a line or getting close to it, you probably are. The parts in there about "avoid even the appearance of these things" and "It's not in the rules is never an excuse for poor behavior" are important guidelines.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: zootv on January 01, 2014, 12:14:28 PM
I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 01:50:09 PM
if i'm not clear on the actual rules i'll be even less clear on what the appearance of breaking the rule looks like. additionally i'm sure even with all the self policing i can muster there will be times when my opinion of whats complying will be different to others.

just as an example the only pm i got for behaviour wasnt clear and when i replied to explain what exactly the issue with what i'd done was i got no response, therefore it left me to assume i was actually  within the line, but not really clearer on where the line actually was.

active and vocal mods will be good, its just that a lot of the warnings are very vague. the vast bulk i have no idea who is specifically being referred to or whether its for me (beyond no pm arriving) and therefore whether i need to check myself (before i wreck myself).

i tend to think the nature of the way the rules are written make it harder or less likely for mod to be able to tell when its time to step in as well as giving them good basis to explain what the problem is (my main point i guess).


Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: singnomore on January 01, 2014, 02:33:31 PM
The key things for me here is focusing in what is being posted and why. How that is executed leads to whether or not someone is proactively being a d**k. Looking at some of the posting behaviours over the past few months that is the boundary that has been pushed more and more.

The object is to ensure we continue open discussion whilst encouraging posters to think about how some of the posts come over.

Otherwise previous boundaries remain in play but these should become clearer if we crack the 'how' of posting.

That help?
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: briscoetheque on January 01, 2014, 02:49:56 PM
What will happen is there will be a steel hammer for a month or two where people will get a ticking off for saying "bottom".

So ride it out til March.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 02:53:26 PM
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The key things for me here is focusing in what is being posted and why. How that is executed leads to whether or not someone is proactively being a d**k. Looking at some of the posting behaviours over the past few months that is the boundary that has been pushed more and more.

The object is to ensure we continue open discussion whilst encouraging posters to think about how some of the posts come over.

Otherwise previous boundaries remain in play but these should become clearer if we crack the 'how' of posting.

That help?

will be interesting at what point someone is ruled to be being a d**k and for what.

not really about the new rules specifically. just the philosophy of how they are framed.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: singnomore on January 01, 2014, 02:59:32 PM

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The key things for me here is focusing in what is being posted and why. How that is executed leads to whether or not someone is proactively being a d**k. Looking at some of the posting behaviours over the past few months that is the boundary that has been pushed more and more.

The object is to ensure we continue open discussion whilst encouraging posters to think about how some of the posts come over.

Otherwise previous boundaries remain in play but these should become clearer if we crack the 'how' of posting.

That help?

will be interesting at what point someone is ruled to be being a d**k and for what.

not really about the new rules specifically. just the philosophy of how they are framed.

I agree the nature of a conversation and how it's being handled can drive the view as to whether someone is attempting to discuss a topic and giving personal insight as opposed to posting for the sake of it. Therefore a discussion on a similar topic handled in different ways could lead one to being viewed in the 'd**k' category and the other not.

I guess it's trying to put yourself in the shoes of the poster your discussing with and trying to think about what intent that person would receive the post - that may help?
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: zootv on January 01, 2014, 03:01:03 PM
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The key things for me here is focusing in what is being posted and why. How that is executed leads to whether or not someone is proactively being a d**k. Looking at some of the posting behaviours over the past few months that is the boundary that has been pushed more and more.

The object is to ensure we continue open discussion whilst encouraging posters to think about how some of the posts come over.

Otherwise previous boundaries remain in play but these should become clearer if we crack the 'how' of posting.

That help?

It's just so ambiguous. What offends one, may not offend another. I think this will lead to a less interesting forum. It actually censors individualism. There a more than a few members who may come across like "d **ks", but there posts are still interesting. In many cases, more interesting than some of the other mundane  U2 related stuff that gets posted around here. Respectfully, I must say these new guidelines are misplaced and overall a bad idea.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: an tha on January 01, 2014, 03:01:11 PM
As someone who has had a few "run ins" with the mods over things I have posted I thought I would chime in....

For me the rules as they are written are pretty unimportant, before you shoot me let me explain..... - ok there are obvious things like porn, racism, abuse of people etc. that are clearly unacceptable and most decent people won't go there, and if they do well I think we all know what is going to happen and rightly so - but the "don't be a d**k" rule is actually a prety good way of doing things IMO..... You only need to worry about it and how it works if you get "your collar felt"..... When that happens I trust that any mod will be reasonable and fair and consistent....with the aim of resolving any problem, misunderstanding or whatever is "wrong" fairly and for the good of all... Its like going in a pub, the landlord does not have a big long list of what you can and cant do on the wall, but the patrons know what is obviously over the line and the rest of it is done between landlord and patron as and when there is an "issue" with the overriding priority the good of all the patrons, staff and landlord...

For what it is worth I would say just post as you do and if and when there is a "problem" trust in the judgment of the landlord and his staff!

By the way I openly admit I have fallen foul a few times with the team here - I am used to a much more robust, rough and ready type of forum and have found adjusting to here a bit of a challenge - I have realised that things that I post elsewhere and are deemed perfectly acceptable are not here - and that is fine, I know the score....... Everywhere is different.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: singnomore on January 01, 2014, 03:16:41 PM

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As someone who has had a few "run ins" with the mods over things I have posted I thought I would chime in....

For me the rules as they are written are pretty unimportant, before you shoot me let me explain..... - ok there are obvious things like porn, racism, abuse of people etc. that are clearly unacceptable and most decent people won't go there, and if they do well I think we all know what is going to happen and rightly so - but the "don't be a d**k" rule is actually a prety good way of doing things IMO..... You only need to worry about it and how it works if you get "your collar felt"..... When that happens I trust that any mod will be reasonable and fair and consistent....with the aim of resolving any problem, misunderstanding or whatever is "wrong" fairly and for the good of all... Its like going in a pub, the landlord does not have a big long list of what you can and cant do on the wall, but the patrons know what is obviously over the line and the rest of it is done between landlord and patron as and when there is an "issue" with the overriding priority the good of all the patrons, staff and landlord...

For what it is worth I would say just post as you do and if and when there is a "problem" trust in the judgment of the landlord and his staff!

By the way I openly admit I have fallen foul a few times with the team here - I am used to a much more robust, rough and ready type of forum and have found adjusting to here a bit of a challenge - I have realised that things that I post elsewhere and are deemed perfectly acceptable are not here - and that is fine, I know the score....... Everywhere is different.

I think that's a good approach.

The vast majority of posting on all threads is what we want to see. It's not about stopping people posting but it is about trying to weed out the covert 'trolls' for example who are obviously out to wind posters and forum mods etc up. So for example we expected different views on Ordinary Love but there did appear to be an attempt to beat into submission anyone who dared say they liked it. Fine have the debate but respect everyone's point of view. Don't move to cheap p**s taking as a way to reinforce a personal opinion for example is all we  are trying to manage here. It ruins debate and the last few months we could see and we were getting feedback that the forum was becoming toxic.

Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 03:17:39 PM
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i tend to think the nature of the way the rules are written make it harder or less likely for mod to be able to tell when its time to step in as well as giving them good basis to explain what the problem is (my main point i guess).

Trust me when I say that the discussions we've had over the past month will make it much easier for the mods to identify the kinds of behavior that don't fit with what we want this community to be.

That's not to say everything will be perfect; we're all human, after all. But we are all on the same page and have a clear vision of where things need to go.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 03:18:56 PM
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What will happen is there will be a steel hammer for a month or two where people will get a ticking off for saying "bottom".

So ride it out til March.

If that's your approach, I predict you're likely to be gone from the forum by April 1. There's nothing short-term about this. I promise.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 03:27:46 PM
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Its like going in a pub, the landlord does not have a big long list of what you can and cant do on the wall, but the patrons know what is obviously over the line and the rest of it is done between landlord and patron as and when there is an "issue" with the overriding priority the good of all the patrons, staff and landlord...

For what it is worth I would say just post as you do and if and when there is a "problem" trust in the judgment of the landlord and his staff!

I'd say that's a pretty good analogy. And it would be impossible for us to write a comprehensive list of "Don't Dos" because we can't predict the future, can't predict what situations will arise, etc. So "don't be a d**k" is the general, overriding idea that we kept returning to while discussing the new rules.

In the rules and guidelines, we use the public park analogy -- but the idea is the same. Another analogy we talked about was the GA line at a U2 concert, and how fans typically converse and treat each other in that setting. It's very much a community of like-minded people that don't always agree with each other, but always disagree and interact in a fun, respectful way.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: zootv on January 01, 2014, 03:40:53 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: missey on January 01, 2014, 04:10:08 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

I think the new rules are great.  I haven't posted in a while just for that exact reason, "being trampled and trashed".  I've been a member of this forum from day 1 and the amount of trash talk lately has just been too much!  Thanks m2 and the moderators. 
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 04:20:37 PM
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Its like going in a pub, the landlord does not have a big long list of what you can and cant do on the wall, but the patrons know what is obviously over the line and the rest of it is done between landlord and patron as and when there is an "issue" with the overriding priority the good of all the patrons, staff and landlord...

For what it is worth I would say just post as you do and if and when there is a "problem" trust in the judgment of the landlord and his staff!

I'd say that's a pretty good analogy. And it would be impossible for us to write a comprehensive list of "Don't Dos" because we can't predict the future, can't predict what situations will arise, etc. So "don't be a d**k" is the general, overriding idea that we kept returning to while discussing the new rules.

In the rules and guidelines, we use the public park analogy -- but the idea is the same. Another analogy we talked about was the GA line at a U2 concert, and how fans typically converse and treat each other in that setting. It's very much a community of like-minded people that don't always agree with each other, but always disagree and interact in a fun, respectful way.

again not exactly quibbling over the rules not being written down precisely necessarily but when the landlord throws you out ur pretty clear on whats being done and why. you usually have to go a way over the line to get to that point so its more about the behaviour more approaching that limit (wouldnt like the forum to allow acceptable pub behaviour for example).

also not sure about the parks analogy as from my experience parks have few extended conversations and fairly few interaction in general between people that dont know each other.

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i tend to think the nature of the way the rules are written make it harder or less likely for mod to be able to tell when its time to step in as well as giving them good basis to explain what the problem is (my main point i guess).

Trust me when I say that the discussions we've had over the past month will make it much easier for the mods to identify the kinds of behavior that don't fit with what we want this community to be.

That's not to say everything will be perfect; we're all human, after all. But we are all on the same page and have a clear vision of where things need to go.

sounds good, and i dont think anyone is expecting perfection.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 04:21:49 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

I think the new rules are great.  I haven't posted in a while just for that exact reason, "being trampled and trashed".  I've been a member of this forum from day 1 and the amount of trash talk lately has just been too much!  Thanks m2 and the moderators. 

from day 1 eh.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: EnduringChill on January 01, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
I like the new rules. I don't think they're too vague; I think people should use common sense when deciding if what they're about to post would offend someone. For example, no one likes hearing that their opinions are worthless or being personally attacked (which is the same). That's being a d**k, I take it. Or just imagine how you would talk to someone in real life. I've noticed a lot of arguments people get into on the Internet are not things one would usually bother arguing over in person, possibly because of the anonymity factor...

But I did have one really minor problem- the use of the word "d**k." ;) I mean, you can completely disregard this, but I thought it was a childish word to use and that "jerk" would work too, as well as I'm not sure if it's PG language (but I haven't watched PG movies in a long time so I wouldn't know anymore!). Probably doesn't matter, that was just how I felt.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Tumbling Dice on January 01, 2014, 04:47:55 PM
My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.

Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: an tha on January 01, 2014, 04:51:53 PM
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I like the new rules. I don't think they're too vague; I think people should use common sense when deciding if what they're about to post would offend someone. For example, no one likes hearing that their opinions are worthless or being personally attacked (which is the same). That's being a d**k, I take it. Or just imagine how you would talk to someone in real life. I've noticed a lot of arguments people get into on the Internet are not things one would usually bother arguing over in person, possibly because of the anonymity factor...

But I did have one really minor problem- the use of the word "d**k." ;) I mean, you can completely disregard this, but I thought it was a childish word to use and that "jerk" would work too, as well as I'm not sure if it's PG language (but I haven't watched PG movies in a long time so I wouldn't know anymore!). Probably doesn't matter, that was just how I felt.

you'd have loved the name of the rule that the mods came up with on another forum i post on. It was even worse - admittedly on an over 18's forum with a lads down the ale house vibe....  rule the same as the one here really...... the interesting thing is that i can only recall one person getting banned by it - it worked, people got it!
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: EnduringChill on January 01, 2014, 05:03:18 PM
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I like the new rules. I don't think they're too vague; I think people should use common sense when deciding if what they're about to post would offend someone. For example, no one likes hearing that their opinions are worthless or being personally attacked (which is the same). That's being a d**k, I take it. Or just imagine how you would talk to someone in real life. I've noticed a lot of arguments people get into on the Internet are not things one would usually bother arguing over in person, possibly because of the anonymity factor...

But I did have one really minor problem- the use of the word "d**k." ;) I mean, you can completely disregard this, but I thought it was a childish word to use and that "jerk" would work too, as well as I'm not sure if it's PG language (but I haven't watched PG movies in a long time so I wouldn't know anymore!). Probably doesn't matter, that was just how I felt.

you'd have loved the name of the rule that the mods came up with on another forum i post on. It was even worse - admittedly on an over 18's forum with a lads down the ale house vibe....  rule the same as the one here really...... the interesting thing is that i can only recall one person getting banned by it - it worked, people got it!
Looks like it wasn't appropriate to share here, if the mod's editing of your comment is anything to go by!
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: an tha on January 01, 2014, 05:05:19 PM
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I like the new rules. I don't think they're too vague; I think people should use common sense when deciding if what they're about to post would offend someone. For example, no one likes hearing that their opinions are worthless or being personally attacked (which is the same). That's being a d**k, I take it. Or just imagine how you would talk to someone in real life. I've noticed a lot of arguments people get into on the Internet are not things one would usually bother arguing over in person, possibly because of the anonymity factor...

But I did have one really minor problem- the use of the word "d**k." ;) I mean, you can completely disregard this, but I thought it was a childish word to use and that "jerk" would work too, as well as I'm not sure if it's PG language (but I haven't watched PG movies in a long time so I wouldn't know anymore!). Probably doesn't matter, that was just how I felt.

you'd have loved the name of the rule that the mods came up with on another forum i post on. It was even worse - admittedly on an over 18's forum with a lads down the ale house vibe....  rule the same as the one here really...... the interesting thing is that i can only recall one person getting banned by it - it worked, people got it!
Looks like it wasn't appropriate to share here, if the mod's editing of your comment is anything to go by!

i had already starred out the offending word myself, in exactly the same way that the word in the name of the rule here was starred out - so a bit unsure why it needed removing totally but there you go....
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 05:13:43 PM
gender bias?
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Droo on January 01, 2014, 05:16:50 PM
You couldn't possibly argue that the word you starred out was on the same level of profanity as "d*ck".
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: EnduringChill on January 01, 2014, 05:20:30 PM
Gender bias? *insert unamused smiley here*

Ah. So the word I used is PG and the word he used is not. I'm pretty sure I can guess what that was.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: an tha on January 01, 2014, 05:24:01 PM
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You couldn't possibly argue that the word you starred out was on the same level of profanity as "d*ck".

Of course I could, but that's your perception as mine is mine you are entitled to it and you have the mod panel..... pointless arguing. I starred it out, you chose to delete it.

The word profanity does make me smile though, I guess its a culture clash I can imagine we are very different in our outlooks/backgrounds.... no biggie!

Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: briscoetheque on January 01, 2014, 05:34:16 PM
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What will happen is there will be a steel hammer for a month or two where people will get a ticking off for saying "bottom".

So ride it out til March.

If that's your approach, I predict you're likely to be gone from the forum by April 1. There's nothing short-term about this. I promise.

Dammit! That means I'll miss all the "u2 to duet with Ke$ha/t-pain/one direction" threads on April 1st.

Ill be good. I'm always good.

Reasonable person test applied to any "i got offended" reports should be all that's required.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: briscoetheque on January 01, 2014, 05:35:41 PM
My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: imaginary friend on January 01, 2014, 05:41:46 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

Maybe it's not, but it's their house, their rules - and this is coming from a guy who's getting banned the next time I cross one of their lines. Trust me, when that day comes (and it will come), I won't even be mad at them for a second. I don't have to run this place, and you don't, either; they do. Let them do their work the way they see fit.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Droo on January 01, 2014, 05:44:09 PM
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The word profanity does make me smile though, I guess its a culture clash I can imagine we are very different in our outlooks/backgrounds.... no biggie!



Ha. In real life I have an absolutely filthy mouth and sense of humour. 
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: EnduringChill on January 01, 2014, 05:52:44 PM
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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.
Hey, deja vu...

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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

Maybe it's not, but it's their house, their rules - and this is coming from a guy who's getting banned the next time I cross one of their lines. Trust me, when that day comes (and it will come), I won't even be mad at them for a second. I don't have to run this place, and you don't, either; they do. Let them do their work the way they see fit.
+1
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: briscoetheque on January 01, 2014, 06:17:02 PM
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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.
Hey, deja vu...

Hey Whooooooosh Express  :P
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 06:22:27 PM
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The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

If it helps get rid of the people that consider it a sport to run roughshod over other members of the community, it'll be a great way to build community.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 06:23:53 PM
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I think the new rules are great.  I haven't posted in a while just for that exact reason, "being trampled and trashed".  I've been a member of this forum from day 1 and the amount of trash talk lately has just been too much!  Thanks m2 and the moderators. 

Thanks missey. We look forward to seeing more of you and many others who haven't been around much lately. We also look forward to having the forum be a friendlier and more welcoming place for all the new members that are likely to join as U2 gets more active this year.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: zootv on January 01, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
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The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

If it helps get rid of the people that consider it a sport to run roughshod over other members of the community, it'll be a great way to build community.

Don't you think that's exaggerating a bit? I don't see an overt amount of that behavior on this forum. Either way, this is your place. I'll respect your rules as long as I choose to stay here.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 01, 2014, 06:32:53 PM
zootv, as I said earlier, we're very aware of the number of members (veterans and newer folks) that have stopped posting or stopped visiting altogether because of the way a small number of members were behaving on the forum. "Toxic" is the word we've heard more than any other over the last several months. So, no, I don't think what I said is an exaggeration at all.

And thank you for respecting the rules and what we're trying to do. (Thanks to others who've said the same thing.)
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: EnduringChill on January 01, 2014, 06:38:40 PM
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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.
Hey, deja vu...

Hey Whooooooosh Express  :P
My first trip on the Whooooooooosh Express! I've been waiting for this day for a long time!

(But come on, I was just trying to make a joke. ::) )
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 06:38:51 PM
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The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

If it helps get rid of the people that consider it a sport to run roughshod over other members of the community, it'll be a great way to build community.

welcome to the internet
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 06:39:59 PM
zootv sometimes it does seem like the default settings set a bit too high

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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.

they dont make it easy though.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: zootv on January 01, 2014, 07:07:46 PM
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zootv sometimes it does seem like the default settings set a bit too high

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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.

they dont make it easy though.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: GardenTart on January 01, 2014, 07:21:28 PM
Rules are necessary in any community. The rules that the mods have set out are clear and reasonable, and I thank you for doing your jobs day in and day out.


Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 09:26:41 PM
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zootv sometimes it does seem like the default settings set a bit too high

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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.

they dont make it easy though.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean.

two responses in 1 post, thats all

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The rules that the mods have set out are clear.


i disagree but it may be necessary
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Miami66 on January 01, 2014, 09:47:54 PM
I'm just glad the mods and M2 let us chime in on suggestions for the new rules. If you didn't contribute anything, you have nothing to complain about. Like they said, this isn't a democracy, they DID NOT HAVE to let us give any feedback at all. However I think that Matt believes in doing things right and giving a fair shake which has to be a reason why the atu2.com website has been so successful. It's the people here that make it great (plus this great band called U2). I say we focus on the band we all love and stop the toxicity that has developed around here.

We are people born of sound, the songs are in our eyes.

Miami66
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 01, 2014, 10:07:15 PM
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I'm just glad the mods and M2 let us chime in on suggestions for the new rules. If you didn't contribute anything, you have nothing to complain about. Like they said, this isn't a democracy, they DID NOT HAVE to let us give any feedback at all. However I think that Matt believes in doing things right and giving a fair shake which has to be a reason why the atu2.com website has been so successful. It's the people here that make it great (plus this great band called U2). I say we focus on the band we all love and stop the toxicity that has developed around here.

We are people born of sound, the songs are in our eyes.

Miami66

to be honest i never even heard it was under discussion
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Blue Silken Sky on January 01, 2014, 10:15:28 PM
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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.
Hey, deja vu...

Hey Whooooooosh Express  :P
Day = made!
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on January 02, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
Well, I guess you guys really do care. I'm touched.

But seriously, a few months ago m2 put a call out in the forum for new moderators. It was done this way because we want moderators that have been a part of the forum. In fact, all of the mods we have were hired in this same way. And some of us (me) have been on the wrong side of the forum rules prior to joining the team. I call that grace. And a little grace goes both ways. None of us think we're curing cancer here, but we also know that we don't want this place to be some car crash that everyone wants to look at, but no one wants to be involved in. If I, and probably most of you, walked into a bar or restaurant and saw a sign that said "Rules: Don't be a d**k", you'd probably laugh and agree with it. But it doesn't mean you can't debate. It's just how you debate is part of what we're interested in. But to think that this is all part of some New Year's resolution for the forum, and will soon die out; well, that's just false. Really guys, it ain't hard. A little thought goes a long way... or something like that anyway.

And the analogy with comparing this place to a public park doesn't mean that you'd talk and be friendly with everyone in the park. It means that you wouldn't show up in the park and take a leak on the slide, throw your trash on the lawn, and then push kids off the swings. (At least I hope you wouldn't.)
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 02, 2014, 12:43:31 AM
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The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

If it helps get rid of the people that consider it a sport to run roughshod over other members of the community, it'll be a great way to build community.

welcome to the internet

If it's not obvious yet, our expectation is that the conversation and level of civility in this forum will far exceed what happens elsewhere on the internet. Surely we can do better. And we will.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 02, 2014, 12:46:23 AM
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I'm just glad the mods and M2 let us chime in on suggestions for the new rules. If you didn't contribute anything, you have nothing to complain about. Like they said, this isn't a democracy, they DID NOT HAVE to let us give any feedback at all. However I think that Matt believes in doing things right and giving a fair shake which has to be a reason why the atu2.com website has been so successful. It's the people here that make it great (plus this great band called U2). I say we focus on the band we all love and stop the toxicity that has developed around here.

We are people born of sound, the songs are in our eyes.

Miami66

to be honest i never even heard it was under discussion

http://forum.atu2.com/index.php/topic,22376.0.html
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Tumbling Dice on January 02, 2014, 09:48:59 AM
For what itís worth, I agree with the Mods approach of formulating and putting in place general guidelines which govern conduct rather than legislating in too much detail, even though they have a lawyer on the firm in Droo whose expertise they could have handily called upon. Too many rules and regulations and itíll start to resemble the European Union more than a fan forum.  Itís reasonable to expect us to self-regulate or self-moderate our conduct and appeal to our sense of whatís appropriate behaviour in different circumstances, so as to minimise the need for the Mods to intervene in what are quite often little more than squabbles that one would expect to find in a Kindergarten playground.  These new guidelines highlight the principles and the spirit in which the Mods - and most of us, I would hope - want the forum to blaze a trail in: a forum of thoughtful and civil discussion and a warm and good natured community of U2 fans with an inclusive atmosphere fostering an open expression of opinions without fear or favour.  What we would only expect of a forum made up of fans of a band like U2.  As Bono said during a concert in Sarajevo ďTo be one, to be united is a great thing.  But to respect differences may be even a greater thing.Ē

Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Droo on January 02, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
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For what it’s worth, I agree with the Mods approach of formulating and putting in place general guidelines which govern conduct rather than legislating in too much detail, even though they have a lawyer on the firm in Droo whose expertise they could have handily called upon.


As a lawyer I don't make the rules, I just apply them. Creation of rules is the realm of the legislators. :P
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 02, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
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My policy from now on is just to ignore the very few idiots who I feel drag the forum down.

I think itís a sensible policy for a happier and more civil forum, especially if we can all manage to sing from the same hymn sheet in collectively sending the few idiots to Coventry.  This process would separate the wheat from the chaff and make it clearer to all and sundry which members of the forum are the genuine U2 fans amongst us and which are the agitators.  In pursuing the new Ďagenda for changeí there may be casualties, some members will fall at the fences as we go forward, clusters may fall at the Canal Turn, more at the Chair, and still even more at Becherís Brook, and that is regrettable, but the Mods should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  But, in the final analysis, shaking out the membership may be a price worth paying to get a @U2 forum worthy of the name.



actually i think more active reporting may be a more effective way to go now the mods are juiced up.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: soapit on January 02, 2014, 01:45:29 PM
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The take it or leave it attitude is not a way to build a healthy community either.

If it helps get rid of the people that consider it a sport to run roughshod over other members of the community, it'll be a great way to build community.

welcome to the internet

If it's not obvious yet, our expectation is that the conversation and level of civility in this forum will far exceed what happens elsewhere on the internet. Surely we can do better. And we will.

i think i may be derailing slightly from zootvs original point, apologies
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Tumbling Dice on January 02, 2014, 03:06:14 PM
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For what itís worth, I agree with the Mods approach of formulating and putting in place general guidelines which govern conduct rather than legislating in too much detail, even though they have a lawyer on the firm in Droo whose expertise they could have handily called upon.


As a lawyer I don't make the rules, I just apply them. Creation of rules is the realm of the legislators. :P

But the legislators need lawyers to draft the statutes. :P

Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: missey on January 02, 2014, 07:02:18 PM
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I'm afraid to post now. Feels like kindergarten , IMO. 

You're welcome to use another U2 fan forum, zootv. There are other options out there if you decide this isn't the type of community you want to help grow and be part of.

Ironically, one reason we've rewritten the rules is that a great many others have left the forum out of fear of posting, too. But not fear of violating any rule -- fear of being trampled and trashed by other users. That's no way to build a healthy community.

I think the new rules are great.  I haven't posted in a while just for that exact reason, "being trampled and trashed".  I've been a member of this forum from day 1 and the amount of trash talk lately has just been too much!  Thanks m2 and the moderators. 

from day 1 eh.

Correct.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: U2-obsessed and proud on January 02, 2014, 10:30:27 PM
Rule change or not, most of us will continue to act like the respectful people we are. I'm looking forward to the cracking down on the vocal minority or idiots and getting this forum back to its glory days.

I used to LIVE here, basically. 2009-2011, you couldn't get me off of here unless you smashed my laptop.  Now that I've graduated college and am living the adult life, I don't have as much time as I used to, but I still love this place.  I've met some great people on here, people I've met in real life and people I've been in touch with for 3-5 years now.  I want this place to be as fun for everyone else as it has been for me.  Good stuff, mods. Applause.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: surit87 on January 03, 2014, 12:07:01 AM
The acid test for the mods will be when U2's new album comes out, trust me. The negativity of a few will be overwhelming, as my experience with OL showed. But I hope there are many who're able to stay decent for the sake of the forum. I simply love this place because it's the only place (I live far from western civilization) where I can talk about U2. My best of luck to the mods.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: m2 on January 03, 2014, 01:06:02 AM
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The acid test for the mods will be when U2's new album comes out, trust me. The negativity of a few will be overwhelming, as my experience with OL showed. But I hope there are many who're able to stay decent for the sake of the forum. I simply love this place because it's the only place (I live far from western civilization) where I can talk about U2. My best of luck to the mods.

I think that'll be more of a test for the forum membership than for the mods. It's perfectly fine to not like the album and share that opinion in the forum. But the test will be how those folks do it. The parts in the rules where we mention

* Appreciation threads,
* posting an opinion as if it's fact, and
* posting the same thing over and over (beating dead horses)

certainly apply to discussions like that. It was a huge turn-off for some members and moderators during the Ordinary Love discussions to see some people posting a dozen times a day, day after day, that the song was awful. We're not gonna tolerate that. And we also won't tolerate people posting repeatedly how great something is, either. Beating a dead horse can be done with both negative and positive posts.
Title: Re: Can the rules be more specific?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on January 03, 2014, 01:54:20 AM
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Rule change or not, most of us will continue to act like the respectful people we are.

You nailed it on the head. Truth is, this shouldn't change how many of you already interact with each other.