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U2 => General U2 Discussion => Topic started by: jaredlabbq on March 23, 2017, 04:59:48 PM

Title: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jaredlabbq on March 23, 2017, 04:59:48 PM
Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on March 23, 2017, 05:06:44 PM
Welcome to the forum! We are a mixed bag...religion-wise, from what I've seen. I'm what I call a "bad" Christian...meaning I drink, and curse, and generally enjoy life, while still having a very deep belief in God. I don't go to church (anymore)...don't read the Bible (anymore), but I still say what I call my "pleases and thank you's" to God each day, and I believe that he listens. So, I'm a bit weird, but mostly happy with it.
Anyway...welcome!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 23, 2017, 05:08:06 PM
i know 2 hardcore angry atheists that are obsessed with u2
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jaredlabbq on March 23, 2017, 05:13:45 PM
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i know 2 hardcore angry atheists that are obsessed with u2

No way! I don't hate God or Jesus or Christianity or religion, that's not it. At all. I have mixed feelings about organized religion, that's all. I try to view their lyrics relating to a relationship between a man and his lover, or a man and himself, or a man and the world around him. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Smee on March 23, 2017, 05:27:39 PM
Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 23, 2017, 05:45:27 PM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on March 23, 2017, 05:56:51 PM
I just wrote this, which gives you a sense of where I'm at:

http://amzn.to/2mZADic
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 23, 2017, 06:04:34 PM
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I just wrote this, which gives you a sense of where I'm at:

http://amzn.to/2mZADic

holy crap you wrote a book? nice!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Canadanne on March 23, 2017, 06:19:54 PM
I guess I'm somewhere between atheist and agnostic. Not into organised religion and don't really believe in any deity or afterlife, but wouldn't claim to know for sure. And yes, I adore U2. :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on March 23, 2017, 06:44:26 PM
That's me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Kmama07 on March 23, 2017, 07:20:53 PM
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I just wrote this, which gives you a sense of where I'm at:

http://amzn.to/2mZADic
Interesting. Just ordered...along with Accidental Saints. Look forward to them both
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: miryclay on March 23, 2017, 08:04:57 PM
Congrats Exile. Great of you to share.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DK46 on March 23, 2017, 10:42:34 PM
I waiver between atheism and agnosticism, but I'm probably more an apatheist.  Basically, I don't know what happens when you die, but I don't really care either.  All that said, I am a very devoted U2 fan.  I don't hate religion though and know plenty of people who are decent people who value/have faith.  It just was never for me, but I can see the good and the bad. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jenniferh aka jen on March 23, 2017, 11:37:12 PM
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I guess I'm somewhere between atheist and agnostic. Not into organised religion and don't really believe in any deity or afterlife, but wouldn't claim to know for sure. And yes, I adore U2. :)

Same here


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on March 24, 2017, 02:17:52 AM
Happy atheist and U2 fan here. :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on March 24, 2017, 04:27:05 AM
This thread will die soon.

Never to rise from the dead.

But yes. To quote Richey Edwards... "I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing"
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on March 24, 2017, 06:28:00 AM
I'm an atheist and I'm not going to develop because I don't want this thread to go aloof but... As it was said, I think the band, and Bono in particular, have a way of developing themes that can speak to most people, whatever their beliefs are.

I also believe every faith is powerful incentive, for better or worse, and U2, including Adam as a "non believer" have turned faith into music. For the better.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: lucas.homem on March 24, 2017, 06:36:36 AM
I'm atheist and the lyrics doesn't bother me. Actually, I like to feel their religeous feelings, just for the experience.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 24, 2017, 08:32:12 AM
But isn't every non agnostic U2 fan an atheist?

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: mrsamrocks2 on March 24, 2017, 12:41:48 PM
I join the club of atheist U2 fans!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on March 24, 2017, 12:41:53 PM
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I just wrote this, which gives you a sense of where I'm at:

http://amzn.to/2mZADic
Interesting. Just ordered...along with Accidental Saints. Look forward to them both

Thanks! And Accidental Saints is by my same publisher (Penguin/Random House). I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 24, 2017, 12:48:25 PM
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I'm an atheist and I'm not going to develop because I don't want this thread to go aloof but... As it was said, I think the band, and Bono in particular, have a way of developing themes that can speak to most people, whatever their beliefs are.

I also believe every faith is powerful incentive, for better or worse, and U2, including Adam as a "non believer" have turned faith into music. For the better.

he's a believer now.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: mrsamrocks2 on March 24, 2017, 12:49:16 PM
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I'm an atheist and I'm not going to develop because I don't want this thread to go aloof but... As it was said, I think the band, and Bono in particular, have a way of developing themes that can speak to most people, whatever their beliefs are.

I also believe every faith is powerful incentive, for better or worse, and U2, including Adam as a "non believer" have turned faith into music. For the better.

he's a believer now.
Really? I didn't know that. Is there a quote somewhere?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 24, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
ill look but a pastor did a sermon on the Christian themes of U2 and mentioned he was the long time hold out but was saved after the Vertigo tour i believe.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on March 24, 2017, 01:35:39 PM
I think I remember reading that it was part of his alcohol rehab?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: rubbersoul on March 24, 2017, 02:04:17 PM
I'm an absolute atheist and happy U2 fan.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ian ryan on March 24, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
I'm an atheist and I don't think U2 would be anywhere near as interesting if they weren't religious. Their Christianity has given them all these tools to make art with that they simply wouldn't have had otherwise. Here is an OTR I wrote a couple years ago about my views on it:

https://www.atu2.com/news/column-off-the-record--vol-15-702.html
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on March 25, 2017, 05:56:33 AM
And I'd join the movement
If there was one I could believe in
Yeah I'd break bread and wine
If there was a church I could receive in
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Ultrafly on March 25, 2017, 05:58:19 AM
Yes.

One thing I find fascinating is U2 are clearly religious, but they don't let that define them as a pigeonhole.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: dan on March 25, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
I know early on Bono, Edge, Larry were part of a Christian sect, cant remember what it was called.

Are they part of a mainstream Christianity church now, or is this still the same?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on March 25, 2017, 12:04:30 PM
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I know early on Bono, Edge, Larry were part of a Christian sect, cant remember what it was called.

Are they part of a mainstream Christianity church now, or is this still the same?

The charismatic group they were a part of was called Shalom. As for now, my sense is that none of them is a Christian in any evangelical sense of the word. Like, they're not sitting around having morning devotions with My Utmost for His Highest and then heading off to midweek Bible study.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 25, 2017, 12:12:04 PM
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I know early on Bono, Edge, Larry were part of a Christian sect, cant remember what it was called.

Are they part of a mainstream Christianity church now, or is this still the same?

The charismatic group they were a part of was called Shalom. As for now, my sense is that none of them is a Christian in any evangelical sense of the word. Like, they're not sitting around having morning devotions with My Utmost for His Highest and then heading off to midweek Bible study.

you could be right but i have soundcheck bootlegs of them literally having a pre-show prayer circle.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on March 25, 2017, 12:28:54 PM
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I know early on Bono, Edge, Larry were part of a Christian sect, cant remember what it was called.

Are they part of a mainstream Christianity church now, or is this still the same?

The charismatic group they were a part of was called Shalom. As for now, my sense is that none of them is a Christian in any evangelical sense of the word. Like, they're not sitting around having morning devotions with My Utmost for His Highest and then heading off to midweek Bible study.

you could be right but i have soundcheck bootlegs of them literally having a pre-show prayer circle.

Interesting. But then, virtually every concert or documentary film I watch involves something like that. Alanis does it, FFS, and she's the furthest thing from evangelical!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 25, 2017, 12:48:51 PM
every concert youve seen has a prayer circle? well this was def not being recorded for the world to see ala the Justin Timberlake netflix concert's pre-prayer. i'd like to dig that up im not sure what show it was. i didn't collect alot of soundcheck bootlegs.

k so it's a miami march 21st rehearsal. its not on u2start so ill see if i still have the cd.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on March 25, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
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every concert youve seen has a prayer circle?

Haha, no. But a lot of the concert DVDs or documentaries about artists I see feature them gathering in a circle for prayer beforehand (and often the artists are not evangelical Christians).
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: tigerfan41 on March 25, 2017, 07:35:13 PM
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every concert youve seen has a prayer circle? well this was def not being recorded for the world to see ala the Justin Timberlake netflix concert's pre-prayer. i'd like to dig that up im not sure what show it was. i didn't collect alot of soundcheck bootlegs.

k so it's a miami march 21st rehearsal. its not on u2start so ill see if i still have the cd.

Yeah, the only concerts I've ever seen a prayer circle at were with Christian artists. How long ago was this rehearsal? Recent or many years ago?

----------

Anyway, back to the topic of the thread, I was raised Catholic myself and never really had much of a belief in God until probably age 15. Some stuff happened and it basically just convinced me of the existence of a higher power and stuff has happened since then that only affirms that for me. That said, I'd be best called a questioning Christian, more spiritual than anything else. There's a lot about Catholicism that I disagree with, there's a lot about other denominations that I also disagree with and I've yet to find one that I totally agree with.

One of the things I really enjoy about U2's music is that it seems to be incredibly honest. Bono's written songs that could be taken to be very spiritual/thanking/acknowledging God and he's also written songs questioning God (like Acrobat, IGWSHA and Deadman). I like this healthy mix of the two and as a questioning Christian, I can really relate to all of that.

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I think I remember reading that it was part of his alcohol rehab?

I hadn't heard this information about Adam, but I can tell you from knowing people who went through rehab, many rehabs do make religion part of the process. Spirituality can be another tool to stay on track and build a healthier sober life. Wouldn't surprise me if Adam's rehab process included it.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 25, 2017, 07:37:30 PM
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every concert youve seen has a prayer circle? well this was def not being recorded for the world to see ala the Justin Timberlake netflix concert's pre-prayer. i'd like to dig that up im not sure what show it was. i didn't collect alot of soundcheck bootlegs.

k so it's a miami march 21st rehearsal. its not on u2start so ill see if i still have the cd.

Yeah, the only concerts I've ever seen a prayer circle at were with Christian artists. How long ago was this rehearsal? Recent or many years ago?


oh duh i didn't finish the date did i. lol it was 2001. let me rip the cd now as a matter of fact. for my own interests.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Manos73 on March 25, 2017, 11:17:39 PM
Thought this was common knowledge.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/u2s.travelling.pastor.dies/48884.htm

U2's travelling pastor, Rev. Jack Heaslip passed away. . .  spent many years on tour with the band, travelling with them and providing spiritual guidance to roughly 500 staff and crew members who were spending lengthy periods away from their family.

Described by Killing Bono author Neil McCormick, as a "gentle, thoughtful, soft-spoken, bearded man with strong spiritual leanings," Heaslip was not well known outside of the crew's circles but was well loved by everyone who knew him.

"Pastor Jack is toasting with God in eternity now. We offer our sympathies and condolences, along with our love and prayers, to the Heaslip family and to the U2 community," the U2 blog posted.

"From the fans he never knew he had, those of us who have also felt his pastoral presence through concerts and albums, we agree with the liner notes from Songs Of Innocence and offer our thanks and fond farewells 'To Jack Heaslip, our North Star,'" it continued.

Heaslip first met the band members in the 70s when they were still in high school at Mount Temple Comprehensive School where he was guidance counsellor and chaplain. He eventually transitioned into an Anglican clergyman, ministering to a congregation of his own in west Mayo.

In 1983, he officiated the marriage of Bono and Ali, and continued his friendship with the superstars for the rest of his life.

In a rare occasion in 2001, he was recorded while he led the prayer before the start of the Elevation Tour in Miami during which he prayed that the people who attended the concert would be spiritually moved by the album, as well as all of the other music released by U2.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Manos73 on March 25, 2017, 11:18:59 PM
Also, atheist. I went through a similar situation with religion as the band did early on, I just never came back.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 25, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
In a rare occasion in 2001, he was recorded while he led the prayer before the start of the Elevation Tour in Miami during which he prayed that the people who attended the concert would be spiritually moved by the album, as well as all of the other music released by U2.

i listened to the bootleg and it didnt have the prayer. maybe it was included in teh concert bootleg itself?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Manos73 on March 25, 2017, 11:33:45 PM
It was backstage, not part of the show. I've heard it somewhere, not sure where.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: THRILLHO on March 25, 2017, 11:52:44 PM
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It was backstage, not part of the show. I've heard it somewhere, not sure where.

yea i heard it too swore i had it on cd. ill look again tomorrow
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: monopoly on March 25, 2017, 11:52:55 PM
They prayed the night Sheehan passed
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on March 26, 2017, 01:02:30 AM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

I agree with both of these statements. But on the flip side, I'm a Christian who can be the most salty, pi**ed off, in your face SOB who ever lived. But all of that has nothing to do with anything, because it's never been about what I've done (or haven't done).
I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, saved by grace and overzealous religious people. And they're all, well, just what I said, friends.

As far as the Shalom group that most of the band was in, and the prayer meetings before gigs; I've read those same stories, too. But I think Bono sums it up better right here:
https://www.atu2.com/news/salty-dogma.html
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Kmama07 on March 26, 2017, 01:02:54 PM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

I agree with both of these statements. But on the flip side, I'm a Christian who can be the most salty, pi**ed off, in your face SOB who ever lived. But all of that has nothing to do with anything, because it's never been about what I've done (or haven't done).
I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, saved by grace and overzealous religious people. And they're all, well, just what I said, friends.

As far as the Shalom group that most of the band was in, and the prayer meetings before gigs; I've read those same stories, too. But I think Bono sums it up better right here:
https://www.atu2.com/news/salty-dogma.html

+1
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: tigerfan41 on March 26, 2017, 02:25:31 PM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

I agree with both of these statements. But on the flip side, I'm a Christian who can be the most salty, pi**ed off, in your face SOB who ever lived. But all of that has nothing to do with anything, because it's never been about what I've done (or haven't done).
I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, saved by grace and overzealous religious people. And they're all, well, just what I said, friends.

As far as the Shalom group that most of the band was in, and the prayer meetings before gigs; I've read those same stories, too. But I think Bono sums it up better right here:
https://www.atu2.com/news/salty-dogma.html

+1

+2

It's almost exactly what I've come to believe as well. Slight differences, of course, but mostly the same. Very well stated.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: PopMart_1997 on March 26, 2017, 03:36:44 PM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.
Count me among the ranks! For me, its not about the religious beliefs, its about The Edge and his many sounds....
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on March 26, 2017, 04:35:51 PM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

I agree with both of these statements. But on the flip side, I'm a Christian who can be the most salty, pi**ed off, in your face SOB who ever lived. But all of that has nothing to do with anything, because it's never been about what I've done (or haven't done).
I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, saved by grace and overzealous religious people. And they're all, well, just what I said, friends.

As far as the Shalom group that most of the band was in, and the prayer meetings before gigs; I've read those same stories, too. But I think Bono sums it up better right here:
https://www.atu2.com/news/salty-dogma.html

+1

+2

It's almost exactly what I've come to believe as well. Slight differences, of course, but mostly the same. Very well stated.

Just one more thing about that article, and Iíll get out of here.
I think Bono, in a nutshell,  is making some parallels with the lyrics in The Playboy Mansion here. If you take the God angle out of TPM, the song could be about status and vanity. From the Christian perspective, though, it might still be about those things, but I think it goes a few layers deeper. Reminds me of a thread from 2008:
http://forum.atu2.com/index.php/topic,208.msg3283.html#msg3283

And maybe thatís where this part of the conversation picks upÖ
Cheers
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 28, 2017, 01:52:56 PM
To the original poster, welcome, and you are to be congratulated on letting U2's art speak to you in its own way and not being 'turned off' by its message. IMO, people who avoid U2 because they are put off by their Christianity are just as closed-minded as Christians who won't listen to anything other than faith-based music.

U2 are my favorite band, and I am a devout, albeit 'salty' Christian, but my second-favorite band is R.E.M., and while Michael Stipe is said to be Buddhist, spirituality has rarely if ever been a theme in their music.

Again, welcome.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DisgruntledSherpa on March 29, 2017, 09:16:41 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on March 29, 2017, 09:25:11 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

Hm.  A genuine question, and this is the response?

It takes all types.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 29, 2017, 09:50:36 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Kmama07 on March 29, 2017, 11:37:43 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)
😋😋😋
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Manos73 on March 29, 2017, 11:39:24 AM
Many of us suffer consequences for admitting lack of belief. I've lost friends and strained family relations. So for someone to come on and ask this question on a forum for this band isn't a given or easy.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: tigerfan41 on March 29, 2017, 12:14:32 PM
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Im a staunch Atheist and a longtime, hardcore fan of u2  yet im as good hearted, well meaning a person as anyone on this planet

Well put.

Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

I agree with both of these statements. But on the flip side, I'm a Christian who can be the most salty, pi**ed off, in your face SOB who ever lived. But all of that has nothing to do with anything, because it's never been about what I've done (or haven't done).
I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, saved by grace and overzealous religious people. And they're all, well, just what I said, friends.

As far as the Shalom group that most of the band was in, and the prayer meetings before gigs; I've read those same stories, too. But I think Bono sums it up better right here:
https://www.atu2.com/news/salty-dogma.html

+1

+2

It's almost exactly what I've come to believe as well. Slight differences, of course, but mostly the same. Very well stated.

Just one more thing about that article, and Iíll get out of here.
I think Bono, in a nutshell,  is making some parallels with the lyrics in The Playboy Mansion here. If you take the God angle out of TPM, the song could be about status and vanity. From the Christian perspective, though, it might still be about those things, but I think it goes a few layers deeper. Reminds me of a thread from 2008:
http://forum.atu2.com/index.php/topic,208.msg3283.html#msg3283

And maybe thatís where this part of the conversation picks upÖ
Cheers

That is super interesting, thanks for sharing!

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Many of us suffer consequences for admitting lack of belief. I've lost friends and strained family relations. So for someone to come on and ask this question on a forum for this band isn't a given or easy.


That's too bad to hear. And certainly not reflective of what many take Jesus' teachings to mean (in other words, to accept people, hate the sin, not the sinner et all). I think a lot of times people hide behind religion and use it as a reason to hate people or punish people, when religion at its purest isn't that at all. That's really all I'll say because I don't intend to start a debate on religion here.  :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: an tha on March 29, 2017, 12:14:58 PM
For the record i absolutely do not believe in God/Jesus etc...

I have no problem with people who do - we are all free to believe whatever we want....but for me it is something I have never been attracted to and I don't understand personally how people are attracted to it....but as I say it is their choice as mine is mine.

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: tigerfan41 on March 29, 2017, 09:05:05 PM
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For the record i absolutely do not believe in God/Jesus etc...

I have no problem with people who do - we are all free to believe whatever we want....but for me it is something I have never been attracted to and I don't understand personally how people are attracted to it....but as I say it is their choice as mine is mine.

Yup, and people on both sides of the aisle (and everyone in between!) should have this attitude. The world would be a more peaceful place for sure.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: PopMart_1997 on March 30, 2017, 12:37:18 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.
Religious people will do worse.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on March 30, 2017, 01:17:21 AM
Thank you to all who have kept this thread going smoothly. You know who you are, and we appreciate it. But weíre starting to get into that area of finger pointing and stereotyping in a hot button topic, and that won't go anywhere good.
So keep it cool folks.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 30, 2017, 02:32:01 AM
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Thank you to all who have kept this thread going smoothly. You know who you are, and we appreciate it. But weíre starting to get into that area of finger pointing and stereotyping in a hot button topic, and that won't go anywhere good.
So keep it cool folks.

Really? There's nothing in this thread that makes it stand out from any others.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on March 30, 2017, 05:29:22 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...

One of the things I love about Bono is that I know he's really into religion etc... But even if he appears to be "preaching" in concert, he is very, very respectful of everyone's beliefs. He has a truly tolerant attitude over this. And it always surprises me.

I think Bono is inspired by religion the same way other artists are inspired by Bob Dylan or the Beatles... I don't particularly like Bowie, for instance, but I'm grateful he inspired so many artists I love. I guess I could say that about god : don't believe in him but faith has had an amazing effect on Bono. I respect that.

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 30, 2017, 08:19:44 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...


Jerks come in all shapes and sizes, colors, creeds and nationalities. I respect people's choices, but I must insist that everyone be kind, or I am going to call an ******* an *******, whether they are wearing a cross around their neck or not. I know plenty of Christians who are miserable people. I know agnostics/atheists who are terrific to be around.

The key to me is recognizing the difference between an 'atheist' an 'agnostic' and a 'anti-theists.' Anti-theists are typically as obnoxious as the 'everyone who doesn't attend my church is going to hell' crowd, because both presume to have all the answers and project them onto others. I have no issue at all with people who either don't believe in God or don't care either way, BUT, the people who call God 'the flying spaghetti monster' or 'your imaginary friend in the sky' are obnoxious and disrespectful, and it is my pleasure to call them on it.

Live and let live cuts both ways. I am truly sorry for people here who have felt attacked for their lack of faith, but I didn't do it, so don't stereotype or project that behavior onto all Christians.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on March 30, 2017, 09:15:28 AM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...


Jerks come in all shapes and sizes, colors, creeds and nationalities. I respect people's choices, but I must insist that everyone be kind, or I am going to call an ******* an *******, whether they are wearing a cross around their neck or not. I know plenty of Christians who are miserable people. I know agnostics/atheists who are terrific to be around.

The key to me is recognizing the difference between an 'atheist' an 'agnostic' and a 'anti-theists.' Anti-theists are typically as obnoxious as the 'everyone who doesn't attend my church is going to hell' crowd, because both presume to have all the answers and project them onto others. I have no issue at all with people who either don't believe in God or don't care either way, BUT, the people who call God 'the flying spaghetti monster' or 'your imaginary friend in the sky' are obnoxious and disrespectful, and it is my pleasure to call them on it.

Live and let live cuts both ways. I am truly sorry for people here who have felt attacked for their lack of faith, but I didn't do it, so don't stereotype or project that behavior onto all Christians.

Saint,

1/We're sliding off topic on a topic that is banned by forum rules
2/You've been stereotyping atheists in a thread reaching out to atheists with this quote : "If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)"
I guess you thought it was funny, hence your smiley
3/If I stereotyped anyone then I'm sorry but my post didn't even named christians, it just said "religious profiles". I don't know where you got this.
4/You know... chill out, dude.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: an tha on March 30, 2017, 09:52:26 AM
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For the record i absolutely do not believe in God/Jesus etc...

I have no problem with people who do - we are all free to believe whatever we want....but for me it is something I have never been attracted to and I don't understand personally how people are attracted to it....but as I say it is their choice as mine is mine.

Yup, and people on both sides of the aisle (and everyone in between!) should have this attitude. The world would be a more peaceful place for sure.

Indeed.....applies here too IMO.

Our admin and mod team have a tough job to do keeping here ticking over and spam free etc....fair do's to them for doing it - but it makes their life tougher when comments like the 'atheists will let you know repeatedly' are posted and start to push the tone of a thread away from the cordial one it had been taking up until that comment.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on March 30, 2017, 10:30:55 AM
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For the record i absolutely do not believe in God/Jesus etc...

I have no problem with people who do - we are all free to believe whatever we want....but for me it is something I have never been attracted to and I don't understand personally how people are attracted to it....but as I say it is their choice as mine is mine.

Yup, and people on both sides of the aisle (and everyone in between!) should have this attitude. The world would be a more peaceful place for sure.

Indeed.....applies here too IMO.

Our admin and mod team have a tough job to do keeping here ticking over and spam free etc....fair do's to them for doing it - but it makes their life tougher when comments like the 'atheists will let you know repeatedly' are posted and start to push the tone of a thread away from the cordial one it had been taking up until that comment.
Amen, brother!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 30, 2017, 01:36:14 PM
Wow, has there been a humour ban on here? No one has been personally attacked; no one has denounced anyoneís God or been mocked for their belief.
By drawing attention to the tongue in cheek comment and applying ďmock shockĒ to it does more to derail this thread than the comment itself. We donít have to be offended so letís not be. Letís move on and chill and maybe the thread can continue living.
If you want to see what a flame thread looks like, I suggest you start one on why POP is better than ATYCLB, grab your popcorn and watch the scorn light up the forum!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 30, 2017, 01:45:04 PM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...


Jerks come in all shapes and sizes, colors, creeds and nationalities. I respect people's choices, but I must insist that everyone be kind, or I am going to call an ******* an *******, whether they are wearing a cross around their neck or not. I know plenty of Christians who are miserable people. I know agnostics/atheists who are terrific to be around.

The key to me is recognizing the difference between an 'atheist' an 'agnostic' and a 'anti-theists.' Anti-theists are typically as obnoxious as the 'everyone who doesn't attend my church is going to hell' crowd, because both presume to have all the answers and project them onto others. I have no issue at all with people who either don't believe in God or don't care either way, BUT, the people who call God 'the flying spaghetti monster' or 'your imaginary friend in the sky' are obnoxious and disrespectful, and it is my pleasure to call them on it.

Live and let live cuts both ways. I am truly sorry for people here who have felt attacked for their lack of faith, but I didn't do it, so don't stereotype or project that behavior onto all Christians.

Saint,

1/We're sliding off topic on a topic that is banned by forum rules
2/You've been stereotyping atheists in a thread reaching out to atheists with this quote : "If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)"
I guess you thought it was funny, hence your smiley
3/If I stereotyped anyone then I'm sorry but my post didn't even named christians, it just said "religious profiles". I don't know where you got this.
4/You know... chill out, dude.

1. That is getting REALLY tiresome. If we can't have a free dialogue here as long as we are polite, I really don't understand the point.

2. That was a JOKE. I am sorry to have offended you, truly. And yes, I do think it is funny. Very funny, actually. Lighten up. Take your own advice from your own point #4. The smiley was included to indicate HUMOR. Again, sorry if you didn't get it or like it.

3. None of my post was directed at or meant to describe YOU. I don't know you. I am sure you are a great person; you like Star Wars and U2; how could you not be? You haven't said any of the things that I described, so why would you think I am directing them toward YOU? We are just having a conversation. I very plainly said that jerks come in all stripes. I was simply saying that, while I am sorry you have felt attacked by your lack of faith, disrespect, sadly, is a two-way street, and just because you are a nice person, many of your fellow atheists aren't, just as many of my fellow Christians aren't either. There's this notion that people of faith are intolerant and those who have no faith are more open-minded. I've not found that to be the case at all. People are people and have the same flaws regardless of what they believe or don't believe. Those flaws just manifest themselves in different ways.

4. Like I said; take your own advice. I thought we were having a friendly conversation. You are the one who flipped out buddy, not me. I am honestly shocked at your response.

Thinking I need to spend time elsewhere. I am used to a more honest exchange, as long as posts remain clean and civil. That's not where we are right now, and I am kind of over it.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 30, 2017, 01:45:41 PM
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Wow, has there been a humour ban on here? No one has been personally attacked; no one has denounced anyoneís God or been mocked for their belief.
By drawing attention to the tongue in cheek comment and applying ďmock shockĒ to it does more to derail this thread than the comment itself. We donít have to be offended so letís not be. Letís move on and chill and maybe the thread can continue living.
If you want to see what a flame thread looks like, I suggest you start one on why POP is better than ATYCLB, grab your popcorn and watch the scorn light up the forum!


+1

This joint isn't very much fun any more.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on March 30, 2017, 02:50:22 PM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...


Jerks come in all shapes and sizes, colors, creeds and nationalities. I respect people's choices, but I must insist that everyone be kind, or I am going to call an ******* an *******, whether they are wearing a cross around their neck or not. I know plenty of Christians who are miserable people. I know agnostics/atheists who are terrific to be around.

The key to me is recognizing the difference between an 'atheist' an 'agnostic' and a 'anti-theists.' Anti-theists are typically as obnoxious as the 'everyone who doesn't attend my church is going to hell' crowd, because both presume to have all the answers and project them onto others. I have no issue at all with people who either don't believe in God or don't care either way, BUT, the people who call God 'the flying spaghetti monster' or 'your imaginary friend in the sky' are obnoxious and disrespectful, and it is my pleasure to call them on it.

Live and let live cuts both ways. I am truly sorry for people here who have felt attacked for their lack of faith, but I didn't do it, so don't stereotype or project that behavior onto all Christians.

Saint,

1/We're sliding off topic on a topic that is banned by forum rules
2/You've been stereotyping atheists in a thread reaching out to atheists with this quote : "If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)"
I guess you thought it was funny, hence your smiley
3/If I stereotyped anyone then I'm sorry but my post didn't even named christians, it just said "religious profiles". I don't know where you got this.
4/You know... chill out, dude.

1. That is getting REALLY tiresome. If we can't have a free dialogue here as long as we are polite, I really don't understand the point.

2. That was a JOKE. I am sorry to have offended you, truly. And yes, I do think it is funny. Very funny, actually. Lighten up. Take your own advice from your own point #4. The smiley was included to indicate HUMOR. Again, sorry if you didn't get it or like it.

3. None of my post was directed at or meant to describe YOU. I don't know you. I am sure you are a great person; you like Star Wars and U2; how could you not be? You haven't said any of the things that I described, so why would you think I am directing them toward YOU? We are just having a conversation. I very plainly said that jerks come in all stripes. I was simply saying that, while I am sorry you have felt attacked by your lack of faith, disrespect, sadly, is a two-way street, and just because you are a nice person, many of your fellow atheists aren't, just as many of my fellow Christians aren't either. There's this notion that people of faith are intolerant and those who have no faith are more open-minded. I've not found that to be the case at all. People are people and have the same flaws regardless of what they believe or don't believe. Those flaws just manifest themselves in different ways.

4. Like I said; take your own advice. I thought we were having a friendly conversation. You are the one who flipped out buddy, not me. I am honestly shocked at your response.

Thinking I need to spend time elsewhere. I am used to a more honest exchange, as long as posts remain clean and civil. That's not where we are right now, and I am kind of over it.

Thanks for this post. I'll try to take my own advice, you're right about that ;-)

Just this answering this question : "why would you think I am directing them toward YOU?"

Well, your rant came as an answer to my post, you were quoting me. In my experience that's how a forum works.

By the way, being an atheist doesn't mean I have "no faith". Faith is not exclusive to religious people. I have faith in people. Faith that they're able to do the absolute best and the absolute worst. I take it that we fully agree on that ;-)

Cheers, hope you had a good time !
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on March 30, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
sheesh...this started out as a very interesting thread...what the heck happened.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on March 30, 2017, 03:08:34 PM
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to know if there are any atheists here who adore U2 like I do. I love U2 and have no problem with their beliefs, I know many of their songs contain Christian themes, such as God and Jesus, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone here like me.

Don't worry if there is an atheist about, they'll tell you about it....repeatedly.

That's a cheeky remark, but a funny one. If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)

...Well, at least the atheist will still sit beside you. Put the religious profiles in the mix : some of them won't sit next to each other and others won't even dare enter into the bar in the first place...


Jerks come in all shapes and sizes, colors, creeds and nationalities. I respect people's choices, but I must insist that everyone be kind, or I am going to call an ******* an *******, whether they are wearing a cross around their neck or not. I know plenty of Christians who are miserable people. I know agnostics/atheists who are terrific to be around.

The key to me is recognizing the difference between an 'atheist' an 'agnostic' and a 'anti-theists.' Anti-theists are typically as obnoxious as the 'everyone who doesn't attend my church is going to hell' crowd, because both presume to have all the answers and project them onto others. I have no issue at all with people who either don't believe in God or don't care either way, BUT, the people who call God 'the flying spaghetti monster' or 'your imaginary friend in the sky' are obnoxious and disrespectful, and it is my pleasure to call them on it.

Live and let live cuts both ways. I am truly sorry for people here who have felt attacked for their lack of faith, but I didn't do it, so don't stereotype or project that behavior onto all Christians.

Saint,

1/We're sliding off topic on a topic that is banned by forum rules
2/You've been stereotyping atheists in a thread reaching out to atheists with this quote : "If a vegan atheist who runs marathons and owns a shelter dog sits down beside you at a bar, which fact about themselves will they force into a conversation first? :)"
I guess you thought it was funny, hence your smiley
3/If I stereotyped anyone then I'm sorry but my post didn't even named christians, it just said "religious profiles". I don't know where you got this.
4/You know... chill out, dude.

1. That is getting REALLY tiresome. If we can't have a free dialogue here as long as we are polite, I really don't understand the point.

2. That was a JOKE. I am sorry to have offended you, truly. And yes, I do think it is funny. Very funny, actually. Lighten up. Take your own advice from your own point #4. The smiley was included to indicate HUMOR. Again, sorry if you didn't get it or like it.

3. None of my post was directed at or meant to describe YOU. I don't know you. I am sure you are a great person; you like Star Wars and U2; how could you not be? You haven't said any of the things that I described, so why would you think I am directing them toward YOU? We are just having a conversation. I very plainly said that jerks come in all stripes. I was simply saying that, while I am sorry you have felt attacked by your lack of faith, disrespect, sadly, is a two-way street, and just because you are a nice person, many of your fellow atheists aren't, just as many of my fellow Christians aren't either. There's this notion that people of faith are intolerant and those who have no faith are more open-minded. I've not found that to be the case at all. People are people and have the same flaws regardless of what they believe or don't believe. Those flaws just manifest themselves in different ways.

4. Like I said; take your own advice. I thought we were having a friendly conversation. You are the one who flipped out buddy, not me. I am honestly shocked at your response.

Thinking I need to spend time elsewhere. I am used to a more honest exchange, as long as posts remain clean and civil. That's not where we are right now, and I am kind of over it.

Thanks for this post. I'll try to take my own advice, you're right about that ;-)

Just this answering this question : "why would you think I am directing them toward YOU?"

Well, your rant came as an answer to my post, you were quoting me. In my experience that's how a forum works.

By the way, being an atheist doesn't mean I have "no faith". Faith is not exclusive to religious people. I have faith in people. Faith that they're able to do the absolute best and the absolute worst. I take it that we fully agree on that ;-)

Cheers, hope you had a good time !

By faith, I clearly meant in a higher power, since that's what we are talking about here, but you are of course correct; we can have faith in many aspects of life. I have a certain amount of faith that one of my cats will have puked on the carpet when I get home from work in a bit.

Secondly, I was intending to speak in generalities and not to you directly. Yes, I quoted your post, but it was to build off it, not to criticize you. And again, you haven't said any of the things that I called out, so I wasn't speaking to you directly.

And lastly, no, I didn't have a good time. I don't get online to have misunderstandings or arguments with rank strangers. I find it rather exhausting. If I had it to over again, I would have limited my participation in this thread to my WELCOME comment to the OP.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on March 30, 2017, 03:13:45 PM
https://youtu.be/iUUpvrP-gzQ

A suprisingly level headed argument for agnostics from an even more suprising source.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: paganini12345 on March 31, 2017, 05:45:53 PM
Being a  member of other forums, I actually find this a vert civilised discussion on religious beliefs.
I know things can get out of hand sometimes but the OP was reaching out making a public statement that they love U2 while being atheist. Surely that allows for people with a different view to contribute and due to the nature allows a little cheeky humour?

I'm interested to know why the jaredladbb  asked the original question?
Is it because you feel there are a lot of religious themes in U2s songs that you still feel a connection with in a non-religious way or just love their music? 
I ask because I am interested. For me, I tend to focus more on the music than the lyrics.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: tigerfan41 on March 31, 2017, 07:46:09 PM
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Being a  member of other forums, I actually find this a vert civilised discussion on religious beliefs.
I know things can get out of hand sometimes but the OP was reaching out making a public statement that they love U2 while being atheist. Surely that allows for people with a different view to contribute and due to the nature allows a little cheeky humour?

I'm interested to know why the jaredladbb  asked the original question?
Is it because you feel there are a lot of religious themes in U2s songs that you still feel a connection with in a non-religious way or just love their music? 
I ask because I am interested. For me, I tend to focus more on the music than the lyrics.

It all depends on how you listen to music, I would say. As you said, you focus more on the music. I tend to focus more on the lyrics. So spiritually-leaning lyrics stick out like a sore thumb to me, as do really negative or angry lyrics. On some U2 songs, the spiritual-leaning lyrics are very obvious. Add to that the fact that many people think of U2 as being a Christian band (or did in the 80s) and Bono isn't exactly trying to hide his faith...well you can imagine an atheist fan hearing the music and thinking "hmm, am I listening to/enjoying music about the very thing I don't believe in...is that weird?" It'd kind of be like a Hindu listening to a Christian rock band, except in U2's case they've never been a Christian band but some band members have always been Christian/spiritual to a certain degree and that is reflected in the music.

It goes both ways, too. I know when I was very religious I felt very weird listening to Nine Inch Nails since it seemed a little strange, given their lyrics and the fact that they're clearly the opposite of a Christian band. I'm sure I would have made a similar post like the OP on the NIN forum asking "is it weird I'm a devout Christian and I love NIN?"
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: fez333 on March 31, 2017, 08:38:01 PM
I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Ultrafly on April 01, 2017, 03:13:23 AM
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Being a  member of other forums, I actually find this a vert civilised discussion on religious beliefs.
I know things can get out of hand sometimes but the OP was reaching out making a public statement that they love U2 while being atheist. Surely that allows for people with a different view to contribute and due to the nature allows a little cheeky humour?

I'm interested to know why the jaredladbb  asked the original question?
Is it because you feel there are a lot of religious themes in U2s songs that you still feel a connection with in a non-religious way or just love their music? 
I ask because I am interested. For me, I tend to focus more on the music than the lyrics.

U2 talk about religion in a very non-denominational way. At school etc., there's all the hymns, religious lessons, so mostly people are aware even if they don't believe in the mythology. To be flippant, we all know Batman is a weird guy in a cape with dead, rich parents. Doesn't mean we have to like Batman movies or read the comics.  Same with religion, even a nonbeliever is aware of the basics. And U2 talk about religion in a way that works on a more general level around ethics, belief, and spirituality rather than the 'White Bloke With A Beard Living In A Cloud' cliche.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 01, 2017, 05:36:12 AM
I thought "the comment" was funny.

A little reflective of #outrage that we look to be offended rather than laugh and jog on.

Sad.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on April 01, 2017, 05:36:54 AM
'White Bloke With A Beard Living In A Cloud' ...this really cracked me up...I call him "the big guy in the sky". And, I believe in Him!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 01, 2017, 05:43:37 AM
This thread probably has a shorter life expectancy than a snail on a highway...
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on April 01, 2017, 05:44:55 AM
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This thread probably has a shorter life expectancy than a snail on a highway...
I think you said that in an earlier post...but it's still going...energizer bunny stuff, I guess.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 01, 2017, 05:45:35 AM


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'White Bloke With A Beard Living In A Cloud' ...this really cracked me up...

I wasn't amused. If there's one thing the world has more than enough of, it's hipsters.

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 01, 2017, 05:47:29 AM
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This thread probably has a shorter life expectancy than a snail on a highway...
I think you said that in an earlier post...but it's still going...energizer bunny stuff, I guess.
True. Must have run out of coffee in the mods lounge.

Long may it prosper!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on April 03, 2017, 02:49:09 AM
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I thought "the comment" was funny.

A little reflective of #outrage that we look to be offended rather than laugh and jog on.

Sad.

I like to think that I'm way more relaxed about those kinds of jokes when it's not pinned to one of my quotes... but I ain't sure about that.

In fact, I've never really enjoyed stereotypes jokes, wether it's Jews, blondes, Belgians... you name it.

Hi, I'm Soloyan. Sometimes I take things too seriously.

(@U2 forum crowd) : Hi Soloyan !
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: xy on April 03, 2017, 04:00:45 AM
Sure. Why couldn't atheists enjoy U2's music ?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: WookieeWarrior10 on April 03, 2017, 07:03:32 AM
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Sure. Why couldn't atheists enjoy U2's music ?
This is where I would make a joke about politics, but I can't do that anymore because of politics.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on April 03, 2017, 07:20:15 AM
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Sure. Why couldn't atheists enjoy U2's music ?
This is where I would make a joke about politics, but I can't do that anymore because of politics.
yup
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on April 03, 2017, 11:55:20 AM
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In fact, I've never really enjoyed stereotypes jokes, wether it's Jews, blondes, Belgians... you name it.


Frickin Belgians. Don't get me started....

 ;)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: PopMart_1997 on April 03, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
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'White Bloke With A Beard Living In A Cloud' ...this really cracked me up...

I wasn't amused. If there's one thing the world has more than enough of, it's hipsters.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: codeguy on April 03, 2017, 10:24:45 PM
Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on April 04, 2017, 03:27:58 AM
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

And for completeness, a believer denounces all other Gods but their own.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DoYouFeelLoved on April 04, 2017, 05:25:30 AM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 04, 2017, 07:23:28 AM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.
Then nor is praise deserved.. By the same logic...
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: singnomore on April 04, 2017, 07:48:17 AM
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This thread probably has a shorter life expectancy than a snail on a highway...
I think you said that in an earlier post...but it's still going...energizer bunny stuff, I guess.
True. Must have run out of coffee in the mods lounge.

Long may it prosper!

Nope still here - fingers hovering over the keyboard....  8)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DoYouFeelLoved on April 04, 2017, 07:49:47 AM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.
Then nor is praise deserved.. By the same logic...
It wasn't my intention to start a debate about that, it was just humour, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: briscoetheque on April 04, 2017, 07:56:58 AM
I'm definitely anti-humour, I've tried to make that very clear in my time here...
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DoYouFeelLoved on April 04, 2017, 08:05:59 AM
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I'm definitely anti-humour, I've tried to make that very clear in my time here...
*chuckles*
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on April 04, 2017, 09:47:56 AM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: u2fanBarb...barely conscious on April 04, 2017, 10:05:02 AM
I am glad to read that there are many like- minded individuals who are U2 fans. I've often had trouble reconciling my atheism with their beliefs- but I am always reminded of their honesty- and I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on April 04, 2017, 10:18:45 AM
Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on April 04, 2017, 12:53:09 PM
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Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.

There's a chapter in my book called "S**t Happens (Or, the Excruciating Disruption of Power," and it deals with the problem of evil in some detail.

www.drunkexpastors.com/book

PM me for a signed copy....
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on April 04, 2017, 01:20:40 PM
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Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.

I don't think it is a belief that bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to everyone. Good things happen to everyone. No one is immune from suffering, and no one gets through life without some difficulty. I can't speak to other faiths, but I don't understand how any Christian can subscribe to the 'bad things happen to bad people, and if something bad happens to you, you must have deserved it' point-of-view. I don't understand that at all.

Ultimately, you are 100 percent correct, IMO, in saying that some things are just beyond our grasp. That's the reason believers are called 'people of faith' rather than 'people of certainty'. In my humble opinion, science is also a kind of faith, because for every one thing we learn and understand, there are a million more we don't, and science is always changing. When they do it. it is called 'learning' but when people of faith do it, it is called 'revisionism' or 'moving the goalposts'.

I think the world would be a better place if everyone would just admit that on matters of religion and science, we are doing the best we can to learn about the world around us, but none of us is really certain of anything. The problem is, there's an ocean of knowledge, and we only have little paper cups to contain it.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on April 04, 2017, 01:43:58 PM
I agree with a lot of what you've said here, Saint. I am "a person of faith", and I live with a scientist. We share our knowledge, and our beliefs with each other, and blend it all into a kind of synergistic life. It works. (most of the time  :D)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: fez333 on April 04, 2017, 03:43:52 PM
Sorry I am articulately sound as everyone else here.  I am just a uneducated U2 fan.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jenniferh aka jen on April 05, 2017, 12:37:42 AM
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I'm an atheist and I'm not going to develop because I don't want this thread to go aloof but... As it was said, I think the band, and Bono in particular, have a way of developing themes that can speak to most people, whatever their beliefs are.

I also believe every faith is powerful incentive, for better or worse, and U2, including Adam as a "non believer" have turned faith into music. For the better.

he's a believer now.
Really? I didn't know that. Is there a quote somewhere?

No, Adam is still not a "believer" and was not "saved". He's a guy that is spiritual but that does not mean he's religious or believes in a god. I know a lot of people want him to be, but it's not necessary to believe in a god to be spiritual. He's respectful and the zen path he's chosen works quite well for him as it's obvious that he chooses to find inner peace within himself and doesn't require a religion to give him that peace.

Plus, I think he balances bono quite well as a result.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Edges Cat on April 05, 2017, 01:53:33 AM
In Ancient Egypt, cats were worshipped as gods. What happened to that?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: xy on April 05, 2017, 03:13:51 AM
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

To me I always thought it's like this :

Religious man : I believe.

Atheist : I don't believe.

Agnostic : I don't know (because I can't prove it either way)
Title: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on April 05, 2017, 03:24:25 AM
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Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.

Good post. I think it all comes down to wether you believe there is an agenda in the universe. As an atheist, I believe there isn't. "People are significance junkies" to quote Carl Sagan.

I think Bono's wife Ali once said "I wouldn't want to live in a world without God". I think it sums up Sagan's quote. Don't get me wrong, I respect Ali's choice. Because it's her personal choice. I'm not judging that. I'm mean her choice is as good as mine, as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 05, 2017, 05:23:25 AM
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on April 05, 2017, 07:16:21 AM
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)

Thanks.  The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on April 05, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on April 05, 2017, 01:28:12 PM
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

Well, we do sometimes hit a bar...
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: The Exile on April 05, 2017, 02:05:04 PM
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

Well, we do sometimes hit a bar...

My kind of church....
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 06, 2017, 02:12:23 PM
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No. Everyone are in fact born an atheist.

(And therein lies the problem with religion.)
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Athiesm IS a religion. There are few true Athiests out there, for to be an athiest means to actively believe that there is no God, despite a lack of evidence to prove that assertion. Agnosticism is more prevalent and rational, that is, the belief that proof is required before believing in anything. Absent proof of God, the athiest turns to belief in his non-existence, the agnostic turns to non-belief in his existence.

No, that is not necessarily true. Atheism is a lack of belief. If you do not believe in a deity, you are an atheist. You are an atheist if you have no belief in a deity, whether you actively believe that no god exists or you simply do not know (or care (which also make you an apatheist (not joking :) ))). Agnosticism is something else. An agnostic do not only say she doesn't know, she also says it is unknowable. What you are describing is positive atheism. :)

Furthermore, positive atheism can't possibly be a religion (because that is by definition a belief in one or more deities). However, it is a belief.

I am not an atheist because I actively believe that there is no god. I am an atheist not by choice, but because I find no evidence. I am simply not convinced. If someone finds evidence I would believe.

I just wanted to write this, because I think it is wrong to assume the position of a person who says she is an atheist. Atheism is no position, no more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. :)

Thanks.  The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

No. Everyone are in fact born as atheists. And therein lies the problem with religion.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on April 06, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
I think the "problem" with religion is that each one is taught in a manner that denounces other religions. The elephant in the room is that believers are atheistic in that they believe in only one more God than a non believer does.

Great discussion so far. We're awesome at self regulating hey. Mods, put your feet up and relax, we've got this.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on April 07, 2017, 01:11:26 AM
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: DGordon1 on April 07, 2017, 01:22:44 AM
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The "atheism is a religion" point irks me.  It's simply not.

So this  "atheism is not a religion" creed you subscribe to, where do you and your fellow devotees gather together for formal expression of your faith?

 ;)

For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.

This surprises me. For my money (can only speak for the UK), the trend is definitely heading towards a more secular society overall.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on April 07, 2017, 01:58:29 AM
In France it's been one of the topics of the presidential election debate : that religious groups are very vocal and active, hence they obtain certain things and occupy the media eye. According to recent polls, the majority of the people, 60%, are not affiliated to any religion. But since they don't gather under any flag, the "religion less" people do not appear in the debate as such. Yet.

I'm not sure of the trend in terms of secularism but I can see the visibility of religious signs increase. More and more people define themselves in terms of religion first and foremost. That doesn't mean there are more of them.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 07, 2017, 04:05:51 AM
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For my part, it's only recently that I felt the need to "gather" with other atheists. Why ? Because religious groups started intervening in public affairs, like art shows, education, civil rights and such... since my country is made of 60% of people not affiliated to any religion, we need to make our voice heard. It's a defense mechanism, at least for me.

I do not "gather" with other atheists, but I can understand the need and why it is important. In fact, in many places in the world it is not acceptable to be an atheist (in extreme cases you can be killed). Even in some places in the western world, being an atheist might be very problematic. Many people do not even admit that they do not believe. That can be towards parents, family, friends, co-workers, voters etc.

For me it is important to get the point across about what it means to be an atheist. It doesn't necessarily mean a hate towards a god or that you dislike religious people or religion at all. (How can you hate something that doesn't exist? Hating God would make you a theist. Hating religious people wouldn't make you an atheist, it would just make you an idiot. A dislike for religion, which I admittedly possess, is something else.) And it certainly does not mean an active belief that no gods exist. Some do all this, but most do not (I think most atheists are apatheists aswell). One simply does not believe. And that is most often not a choice, but just the way it is. In my case, I find no evidence whatsoever, so it would be a total intellectual collapse and a betrayal towards myself if I said I believe (just to be sure not to go to hell, because it makes me feel good or for some other irrelevant reason). Furthermore, to me there are other and better explanations for what we see around us than what I consider to be myths and pure fantasy.

I love U2, and I have no problems with their christianity. I can also enjoy their religion-inspired lyrics. Often I also find other meanings than the religious interpretations of their lyrics. Sometimes I find meaning in the religious interpretations, also. I don't believe in the main story behind them, but they fall into the same category as any other poem or lyric and fantasy that I find beautiful.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on April 07, 2017, 06:33:31 AM
I'd also add: there has yet to be an open atheist elected president of the US.  Consider the controversy when Kennedy was the first Catholic elected.  For all of the reasons I opposed Trump, I was hopeful that he would have stood up for his...let's say, non-religious...perspective.  Alas, he didn't.  To be clear, I don't really believe he IS religious, and he could possibly be an atheist.  But even today, it's political suicide to admit as much.

I believe we'll certainly see a woman president, maybe even a gay or Muslim president, before we ever see an openly atheist one.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: MattD on April 07, 2017, 06:13:01 PM
To be an atheist U2 fan is in no way a contradiction of sorts. After all, U2 are no Bible bashing Christian rock band and offer a much more complex account of religiosity and faith often highlighting the doubts of one's own spiritual quest.

Bono's faith is exploited in the music as metaphors that offer clarity to his own personal troubles. This is one of the main reasons why I love U2 as they often highlight the tensions between religion, spirituality and the harsh realities of the world.

I'm not religious in anyway, so it's fascinating to hear the doubts and insecurities of a religious individual. It helps you gain an understanding and sense of empathy towards those of faith which, in a society where religion is almost becoming a taboo, provides a more complex view on religion as opposed to the increasingly reductivist and inane belief amongst many that suggests anyone of faith is a lunatic.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: WookieeWarrior10 on April 07, 2017, 07:35:05 PM
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To be an atheist U2 fan is in no way a contradiction of sorts. After all, U2 are no Bible bashing Christian rock band and offer a much more complex account of religiosity and faith often highlighting the doubts of one's own spiritual quest.

Bono's faith is exploited in the music as metaphors that offer clarity to his own personal troubles. This is one of the main reasons why I love U2 as they often highlight the tensions between religion, spirituality and the harsh realities of the world.

I'm not religious in anyway, so it's fascinating to hear the doubts and insecurities of a religious individual. It helps you gain an understanding and sense of empathy towards those of faith which, in a society where religion is almost becoming a taboo, provides a more complex view on religion as opposed to the increasingly reductivist and inane belief amongst many that suggests anyone of faith is a lunatic.
Great post. This same argument rings true for republicans and U2's music. Remember during the presidential election when liberals/democrats were questioning the fandom of conservatives/republicans for their political beliefs? This thread is kind of the same thing (although that's not to say this topic is taking arguments as far as those topics did, if that makes sense).

I'm not going to take that point any further, for obvious reasons...
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 19, 2017, 12:19:54 AM
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Because you believe that everything just magically fell into place and that you were made out of randomness.

I can't speak for other atheist's, but I certainly do not believe anything like that at all. :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: soloyan on April 19, 2017, 01:10:29 PM
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Because you believe that everything just magically fell into place and that you were made out of randomness.

I can't speak for other atheist's, but I certainly do not believe anything like that at all. :)

Buzz, billions of years of evolution isn't exactly "magically falling into place". Building the world in 7 days is.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ian ryan on April 19, 2017, 02:42:10 PM
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Because you believe that everything just magically fell into place and that you were made out of randomness.

I can't speak for other atheist's, but I certainly do not believe anything like that at all. :)

Yep, I find comments like this frustrating in these sorts of discussions. The idea that something like earth could have occurred after billions of years in an infinite space is not magical at all. It's statistical.

It's also frustrating when we get told to explore evidence for religion, as though that hasn't occurred to us yet.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on April 19, 2017, 03:17:30 PM
Iíve been having a bit of a tussle with my ďfaithĒ over the past number of years, (not that I have ever been a devout Christian or regular church goer).
I would class myself as a curious agnostic, at this stage of my life I do need proof that a God exists, although I wouldnít want to live in a world where religious people do not practice the good side of their faith. 

Apart from the proof that I require, I find it pretty contradictive that a religion denies other Gods to strengthen its own plausibility. Even worse when this breeds extremism that is responsible for so much destruction and fear in the world over hundreds of years. Wouldnít an all-powerful, all-good deity intervene?   

The most infuriating thing about religion is that it is taboo to question its existence. And to do so give you a label that is seen as derogatory by believers.  For too long now, most churches have been advertised as a place of worship for those who already have the faith and not one where purpose and guidance can be added to your existence if only you would step inside and listen to the engaging individual in the pulpit interpret the scriptures into modern day terminology and maybe add a few anecdotes where a person has been guided and their life been enriched.  But nah, too much like hard work! 

To wrap this brain dump up, I donít have to believe in immaculate conceptions, man walking on water or people parting seas through verbal commands to know how to treat my fellow humans.  Choosing to live a good life doesnít necessarily mean that you have chosen religion. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: pdk on April 19, 2017, 05:12:57 PM
Why do "atheists" get a label?

It's not like they are weird for not believing in something there is no proof of. 

Someone once said: that which can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Soon they will be labeling partakers of common sense.  Very soon.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 20, 2017, 06:06:34 AM
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Why do "atheists" get a label?

Maybe because there are so many religious people in the world, and it is difficult for many of them to see that it is default?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jenniferh aka jen on April 20, 2017, 08:08:12 AM
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I'm sorry I guess I struck an "evolutionary" nerve. And you know that those can be frustrating for billions and billions of years,  Actually whenever science uses terms like "billions and billions of years" you know that they are really saying, "we don't know but it must be a really long time" right?  Doesn't sound very scientific to me. But here is a fun fact that is statistical. Did you know that scientists have found cartilage in the fossils that they are digging up?  Fossils that have been buried for "billions and billions of years".  Well I hate to say it but soft tissue (i.e. cartilage) can't last that long, even buried.  But you can believe what those scientists are saying if you choose, I will take the 7 day side. To my agnostic friend I say "religion" sucks.  And many bad things have been done in the name of "religion".  There are also churches out there that are simply dogmatic rule shoving places.  But in my experience, I have found a church that nurtures having a real relationship with Christ. That helps me to have that relationship everyday and to try to be a better person to everyone in my life.  I hope that you find a place where that is the core being taught.  As for denouncing other religions, I do not do that in my walk, but I do believe that the Bible is the oldest document we have for living a full life, and when I have yielded myself to God's Word my life seems to run a lot more smoothly than if I don't. And like many people there was a time when I thought it was all about me, but I have since found that it never was.  Again, I am sorry if I am frustrating anyone but this is simply what I believe. At least we can all agree that U2 touches something in us so that we can come together and have these kinds of discussions and that is cool too.

But there is scientific proof that the earth is over 4 billions years old. Plus I think the cartilage you are referring to is the fossilized cartridge that has been found. I prefer having facts and evidence and religion or deities can't provide that for me.

I also think that people who touch on religious beliefs, like Bono, need to feel the comfort of that for their own sake. But Bono conveys it in a way, most of the time, as being a transparent comfort across beliefs. What I call the universe could be what he thinks god is.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Hawkmoon2e on April 20, 2017, 12:51:03 PM
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I also think that people who touch on religious beliefs, like Bono, need to feel the comfort of that for their own sake. But Bono conveys it in a way, most of the time, as being a transparent comfort across beliefs. What I call the universe could be what he thinks god is.

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If this is how you feel, then it's how you feel. I would never argue with someone's feelings, because well, that would be stupid and arrogant of me to do so. But I think Bono has been very clear about who (not what) he thinks God and Jesus are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQClgNRoPc
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on April 20, 2017, 12:57:36 PM
There's really a debate on this thread on the merits of evolutionary theory?  Hasn't even the church come around on this point?

ETA: Apparently not quite, but the pope has made statements that evolution and the big bang don't necessarily refute Biblical teachings or the existence of God.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: fez333 on April 20, 2017, 01:33:55 PM
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Going back to the debate about why God would "allow" bad things to happen:

Not to get into this debate, but that point of view, to me, only enables us to think that if bad things happen, then those bad things are justified by the sins of the people they happen to.  It's a way to believe the world is fundamentally just and fair.  "Bad things happen to bad people," or at least because of them.  It's karma.

Whereas I believe that bad things happen to good people.  I don't really believe in karma--there are far too many awful people who have lives far too blessed--and I think the universe is ultimately unknowable and beyond any concepts we have of fairness or justice.  I know that doesn't exactly provide inspiration or anything, but there you go.

I don't think it is a belief that bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to everyone. Good things happen to everyone. No one is immune from suffering, and no one gets through life without some difficulty. I can't speak to other faiths, but I don't understand how any Christian can subscribe to the 'bad things happen to bad people, and if something bad happens to you, you must have deserved it' point-of-view. I don't understand that at all.

Ultimately, you are 100 percent correct, IMO, in saying that some things are just beyond our grasp. That's the reason believers are called 'people of faith' rather than 'people of certainty'. In my humble opinion, science is also a kind of faith, because for every one thing we learn and understand, there are a million more we don't, and science is always changing. When they do it. it is called 'learning' but when people of faith do it, it is called 'revisionism' or 'moving the goalposts'.

I think the world would be a better place if everyone would just admit that on matters of religion and science, we are doing the best we can to learn about the world around us, but none of us is really certain of anything. The problem is, there's an ocean of knowledge, and we only have little paper cups to contain it.
I agree that we have a lot to learn about religion and science.   

We need to learn to accept others that are different and realize God is not more important than you and I. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: jenniferh aka jen on April 20, 2017, 01:45:08 PM
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I also think that people who touch on religious beliefs, like Bono, need to feel the comfort of that for their own sake. But Bono conveys it in a way, most of the time, as being a transparent comfort across beliefs. What I call the universe could be what he thinks god is.

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If this is how you feel, then it's how you feel. I would never argue with someone's feelings, because well, that would be stupid and arrogant of me to do so. But I think Bono has been very clear about who (not what) he thinks God and Jesus are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQClgNRoPc

That's fine, but it doesn't change my thinking of that I feel the universe is in charge and he interprets that as a god. He also said she prays to the risen Jesus.

I think people who are Christian do not distinguish between the deity - god - and the man - Jesus. I look at them as two separate "entities" and not the same. If that gives him the comfort, so be it.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Blueyedboy on April 20, 2017, 02:38:39 PM
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I'm sorry I guess I struck an "evolutionary" nerve. And you know that those can be frustrating for billions and billions of years,  Actually whenever science uses terms like "billions and billions of years" you know that they are really saying, "we don't know but it must be a really long time" right?  Doesn't sound very scientific to me. But here is a fun fact that is statistical. Did you know that scientists have found cartilage in the fossils that they are digging up?  Fossils that have been buried for "billions and billions of years".  Well I hate to say it but soft tissue (i.e. cartilage) can't last that long, even buried.  But you can believe what those scientists are saying if you choose, I will take the 7 day side. To my agnostic friend I say "religion" sucks.  And many bad things have been done in the name of "religion".  There are also churches out there that are simply dogmatic rule shoving places.  But in my experience, I have found a church that nurtures having a real relationship with Christ. That helps me to have that relationship everyday and to try to be a better person to everyone in my life.  I hope that you find a place where that is the core being taught.  As for denouncing other religions, I do not do that in my walk, but I do believe that the Bible is the oldest document we have for living a full life, and when I have yielded myself to God's Word my life seems to run a lot more smoothly than if I don't. And like many people there was a time when I thought it was all about me, but I have since found that it never was.  Again, I am sorry if I am frustrating anyone but this is simply what I believe. At least we can all agree that U2 touches something in us so that we can come together and have these kinds of discussions and that is cool too.

I wouldn't say your frustrating anyone, although it is a little confusing why you feel you should use a scientific argument that has no citation to try and disprove evolution (I think that's what you attempting to do, apologies if I am wrong) when you are more than capable of articulating excellently what your faith means to you and how it has given you guidance. 



Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ian ryan on April 20, 2017, 03:15:28 PM
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I'm sorry I guess I struck an "evolutionary" nerve. And you know that those can be frustrating for billions and billions of years,  Actually whenever science uses terms like "billions and billions of years" you know that they are really saying, "we don't know but it must be a really long time" right?  Doesn't sound very scientific to me. But here is a fun fact that is statistical. Did you know that scientists have found cartilage in the fossils that they are digging up?  Fossils that have been buried for "billions and billions of years".

Fossils are mineral formations that accumulate where a bone or similar organic structure was. Of course cartilage won't survive billions of years, but a fossil of an organic structure can survive for millions of years. Science is built on the fact that we don't know everything, but that we are searching to learn more about situations and concepts that can be reliably reproduced. Saying "I don't know" is about as scientific a statement as you can make, because that's where the research starts.

Beyond that, making snide comments like you've struck an evolutionary nerve and that human existence without a god is just magical doesn't make me too interested in engaging with you on the topic in any serious way.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: TheEnd on April 20, 2017, 03:50:03 PM
I'm atheist but I wasn't when I first started listening to U2 in the early 90s.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: dislocated on April 20, 2017, 08:00:54 PM
Lee Strobel's books are unconvincing to atheists, they are designed for the believer who might be wavering.

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: pdk on April 21, 2017, 04:34:32 AM
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There's really a debate on this thread on the merits of evolutionary theory?  Hasn't even the church come around on this point?

ETA: Apparently not quite, but the pope has made statements that evolution and the big bang don't necessarily refute Biblical teachings or the existence of God.

I always find it interesting how many people confuse a hypothesis with a theory.

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on April 21, 2017, 11:15:49 AM
Yes, it is interesting. Even after it has been explained.

I had no idea evolution would be brought up here. I thought it was about atheism and if that is in conflict with the faith of some members of U2. For me it isn't.

I have no idea why some religious people bring up evolution when the topic of belief and atheism is being discussed. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with one another. I mean... we aren't questioning a scientific theory here, are we? On a U2 forum? That would be ridiculous!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: achtungx on April 21, 2017, 11:56:33 AM
As a Christian, I find it tacky for a believer to sort of "crash the party" of this topic and either bash atheists/agnostics or try to evangelize to them, judge them, or thrust their beliefs in people's faces here. It won't work, mostly because this isn't the time or place for it. Have respect for other people's beliefs or non-belief, and don't presume or presuppose why they think like they do. Sometimes not coming across as a self-righteous jerk (not saying that anyone is, just that people may take things that way) is the best way to get someone to see your point of view.

I've visited this thread in order to be able to view U2, their songs, etc. through the lenses/ears of non-believers. Your experiences and thoughts greatly interest me.

I love this thread and will go back to just being a voyeur. :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: mattso88 on April 21, 2017, 01:34:38 PM
I am an agnostic when it comes to any organized religion. I feel there is likely some spiritual component to the world though.

As I have gotten older, I have come to appreciate Bono/the band's spirituality. It seems he constantly struggles with it and I have been through similar struggles. My default position just doesn't come from a Christian point of view.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: an tha on April 21, 2017, 05:10:08 PM
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As a Christian, I find it tacky for a believer to sort of "crash the party" of this topic and either bash atheists/agnostics or try to evangelize to them, judge them, or thrust their beliefs in people's faces here. It won't work, mostly because this isn't the time or place for it. Have respect for other people's beliefs or non-belief, and don't presume or presuppose why they think like they do. Sometimes not coming across as a self-righteous jerk (not saying that anyone is, just that people may take things that way) is the best way to get someone to see your point of view.

I've visited this thread in order to be able to view U2, their songs, etc. through the lenses/ears of non-believers. Your experiences and thoughts greatly interest me.

I love this thread and will go back to just being a voyeur. :)

with that kind of brilliant addition to the thread please add more.....less voyeurism and more brilliant comments please!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Kmama07 on April 21, 2017, 09:41:45 PM
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As a Christian, I find it tacky for a believer to sort of "crash the party" of this topic and either bash atheists/agnostics or try to evangelize to them, judge them, or thrust their beliefs in people's faces here. It won't work, mostly because this isn't the time or place for it. Have respect for other people's beliefs or non-belief, and don't presume or presuppose why they think like they do. Sometimes not coming across as a self-righteous jerk (not saying that anyone is, just that people may take things that way) is the best way to get someone to see your point of view.

I've visited this thread in order to be able to view U2, their songs, etc. through the lenses/ears of non-believers. Your experiences and thoughts greatly interest me.

I love this thread and will go back to just being a voyeur. :)

with that kind of brilliant addition to the thread please add more.....less voyeurism and more brilliant comments please!
+1
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: riffraff on April 22, 2017, 05:06:47 AM
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As a Christian, I find it tacky for a believer to sort of "crash the party" of this topic and either bash atheists/agnostics or try to evangelize to them, judge them, or thrust their beliefs in people's faces here. It won't work, mostly because this isn't the time or place for it. Have respect for other people's beliefs or non-belief, and don't presume or presuppose why they think like they do. Sometimes not coming across as a self-righteous jerk (not saying that anyone is, just that people may take things that way) is the best way to get someone to see your point of view.

I've visited this thread in order to be able to view U2, their songs, etc. through the lenses/ears of non-believers. Your experiences and thoughts greatly interest me.

I love this thread and will go back to just being a voyeur. :)

with that kind of brilliant addition to the thread please add more.....less voyeurism and more brilliant comments please!
+1
Yes, achtungx, come back for more! We welcome your open-mindedness and honesty.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: bullettheblue on April 23, 2017, 12:25:06 AM
Hey there! I am most certainly an atheist who adores U2. Some of the religious themes or undertones in their songs don't even bother me because I simply love their music so much. It's funny, because Christian music usually really bothers me and I can't stand listening to it. Yet, if it's U2 singing about God, then I don't really care!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: bullettheblue on April 23, 2017, 01:43:55 AM
Hey there! I am most certainly an atheist who adores U2. Some of the religious themes or undertones in their songs don't even bother me because I simply love their music so much. It's funny, because Christian music usually really bothers me and I can't stand listening to it. Yet, if it's U2 singing about God, then I don't really care!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: shineinthesummernight on April 25, 2017, 06:50:33 PM
I'm not an atheist, but I've always found it fascinating that a lot of atheists act more like believers and a lot of believers act as though they essentially believe in nothing.  So my take on that is that it's really almost impossible to know where anyone stands with God, despite what they may profess or not profess.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: pdk on April 26, 2017, 05:01:43 AM
While I agree that some atheists are evangelical in their views, I find by and large most don't dwell on it much.  When you don't believe in something it doesn't rent much space in your everyday. That goes for anything that doesn't matter to an individual.

It's the people of faith who have the subconscious struggle.  We were all raised to reason and deduce conclusions based on evidence and what we see. YET in matters of faith in a diety, we must put those inherent human attributes aside. Faith by its very definition requires effort. To believe in something we have no proof of.  It's a subconscious conflict... and for some prominent people of faith that inner conflict has publicly manifest itself in... interesting ways. (a mental short-circuit if you will)

If you know your "faith" is absolutely true, it is not faith.  It's blind certainty.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: PopMart_1997 on June 02, 2018, 10:41:10 PM
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I'm atheist but I wasn't when I first started listening to U2 in the early 90s.
And you've been saved! :)
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on June 03, 2018, 02:13:54 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: shineinthesummernight on June 03, 2018, 02:37:22 PM
U2 fandom is a sort of faith in itself :o  According to the author David Foster Wallace, "everyone worships", but you make the choice as to what you worship.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 03, 2018, 08:48:55 PM
Yep I am probably more along the lines of liking what Stephen Hawkings had to say which I find fascinating but who knows really.  That doesn't affect how I feel about Bono and co, I actually like what they have to say and how Bono interprets Christianity.  I like most of their music and lyrics as opposed to other Christian based music which I avoid.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: McSwilly on June 03, 2018, 08:51:15 PM
100% atheist and U2 fan.
"if you wanna touch the sky better learn how to kneel" - OR NOT
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Luzita on June 03, 2018, 09:16:58 PM
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I'm not an atheist, but I've always found it fascinating that a lot of atheists act more like believers and a lot of believers act as though they essentially believe in nothing.  So my take on that is that it's really almost impossible to know where anyone stands with God, despite what they may profess or not profess.
What a fascinating observation. Yes, I agree. Where a person stands with God, what relationship they have with Him within their spirit, isnít necessarily reflected by whatever profession of faith they may make. That is in agreement with some of the things that Jesus said.

When it comes to atheists Iíve known some very evangelical ones, esp. an ex-boyfriend of mine. He was kind of mad at the world, which I think is the same as being mad at God. His ďbeliefĒ didnít make him a better person however.

On the other hand I think there are also some atheists who are, in their spirits, really believers, but in a more positive way.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 04, 2018, 12:46:13 PM
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As a Christian, I find it tacky for a believer to sort of "crash the party" of this topic and either bash atheists/agnostics or try to evangelize to them, judge them, or thrust their beliefs in people's faces here. It won't work, mostly because this isn't the time or place for it. Have respect for other people's beliefs or non-belief, and don't presume or presuppose why they think like they do. Sometimes not coming across as a self-righteous jerk (not saying that anyone is, just that people may take things that way) is the best way to get someone to see your point of view.

I've visited this thread in order to be able to view U2, their songs, etc. through the lenses/ears of non-believers. Your experiences and thoughts greatly interest me.

I love this thread and will go back to just being a voyeur. :)

As a liberal, non-Evangelical Christian, it is sort of interesting to be a fly on the wall (pun intended) for conversations like this and see how much misunderstanding there is out there about people of faith. The only time I get annoyed by this type of conversation is when people of faith are stereotyped, or the kind of offensive comments that would never be tolerated by an atheist or an agnostic get thrown around.

I am guess I am saying there's a big difference between interacting with true agnostics or atheists and interacting with antitheists.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 04, 2018, 01:26:16 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 04, 2018, 02:12:56 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


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It wasn't intended to, but many 'natural' disasters and diseases are actually man-made, and they are only disasters because of what we do with the Earth. We build houses feet away from oceans and then blame God or nature when those houses are destroyed by a hurricane.

Ever thought about that? 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on June 04, 2018, 02:32:12 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't intended to, but many 'natural' disasters and diseases are actually man-made, and they are only disasters because of what we do with the Earth. We build houses feet away from oceans and then blame God or nature when those houses are destroyed by a hurricane.

Ever thought about that?

At the risk of getting anywhere near this topic, this sounds an awful lot like justifying anything bad that happensóitís an easy way to continue thinking the world is ultimately good and fair, and that good people donít have bad things happen to them, or that bad things happen only to people who somehow deserve itósay, living too close to the ocean, or global warming, or somethingówhich can be comforting.

I believe itís fairer to say that bad things can happen indiscriminately. Sometimes bad things happen through no fault of anyone. And certainly through no fault of the victims. Or are we blaming victims of tornados for living where they live, or wild fires, or volcanoes and lightning strikes and earthquakes?

But then, I donít think I believe what you believe, so I donít really have any stake in it whatsoever.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 04, 2018, 02:48:41 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't intended to, but many 'natural' disasters and diseases are actually man-made, and they are only disasters because of what we do with the Earth. We build houses feet away from oceans and then blame God or nature when those houses are destroyed by a hurricane.

Ever thought about that?

At the risk of getting anywhere near this topic, this sounds an awful lot like justifying anything bad that happensóitís an easy way to continue thinking the world is ultimately good and fair, and that good people donít have bad things happen to them, or that bad things happen only to people who somehow deserve itósay, living too close to the ocean, or global warming, or somethingówhich can be comforting.

I believe itís fairer to say that bad things can happen indiscriminately. Sometimes bad things happen through no fault of anyone. And certainly through no fault of the victims. Or are we blaming victims of tornados for living where they live, or wild fires, or volcanoes and lightning strikes and earthquakes?

But then, I donít think I believe what you believe, so I donít really have any stake in it whatsoever.


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I don't spend any time whatsoever anymore trying to explain why the universe is the way that it is. It is unknowable -- for religion or science -- and I find the discussion tedious and unnecessary. We have real-life problems right here and right now that we can't seem to solve, so how in the hell are we ever going to know how many billions of years old the universe is? And what difference would it make if we did know?

I was just responding to a comment; I think it is rude to ignore people who directly engage you.

It certainly wasn't my intent to blame anyone for anything. But you do have to admit, people do have a role in their own misfortune most of the time, even it if is something as innocuous as where you choose to live or what job you do. Actions have consequences and reactions -- that is no way the same as victim blaming. Just, 2+2=4, that's all.

Blame and explain aren't synonyms. Neither are excuses and reasons.

Someone spends 12 hours a day out in the sun with no protection every day for 30 years and dies of skin cancer.
A person of faith might give you a platitude like 'Oh, it was just his time' or 'God decided to call him home'.
An atheist might say 'How can a just God let someone suffer from cancer and die? There can't be a God or things like that wouldn't happen'.

Are we just going to pretend the person's actions didn't cause the cancer and lead to death? Why is that God's fault? Or the sun's? Or, to your point -- anyone's?

Real word example:

My father died from working in asbestos without proper protective equipment. God didn't kill my father. My father wasn't to blame. The asbestos killed my father. The asbestos manufacturers who lied about their product causing cancer killed my father.

BUT, if Dad hadn't worked in a profession that exposed him to asbestos, he wouldn't have died of mesothelioma.

That's all I am saying. Faith doesn't demand a reason or explanation for everything -- mine doesn't anyway.

The universe is the way it is, and it does what it does, and we understand very, very little about any of it, and anyone in a suit or collar or labcoat who tells you otherwise is lying to you, IMO.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 04, 2018, 04:53:14 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't intended to, but many 'natural' disasters and diseases are actually man-made, and they are only disasters because of what we do with the Earth. We build houses feet away from oceans and then blame God or nature when those houses are destroyed by a hurricane.

Ever thought about that?

At the risk of getting anywhere near this topic, this sounds an awful lot like justifying anything bad that happensóitís an easy way to continue thinking the world is ultimately good and fair, and that good people donít have bad things happen to them, or that bad things happen only to people who somehow deserve itósay, living too close to the ocean, or global warming, or somethingówhich can be comforting.

I believe itís fairer to say that bad things can happen indiscriminately. Sometimes bad things happen through no fault of anyone. And certainly through no fault of the victims. Or are we blaming victims of tornados for living where they live, or wild fires, or volcanoes and lightning strikes and earthquakes?

But then, I donít think I believe what you believe, so I donít really have any stake in it whatsoever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't spend any time whatsoever anymore trying to explain why the universe is the way that it is. It is unknowable -- for religion or science -- and I find the discussion tedious and unnecessary. We have real-life problems right here and right now that we can't seem to solve, so how in the hell are we ever going to know how many billions of years old the universe is? And what difference would it make if we did know?

I was just responding to a comment; I think it is rude to ignore people who directly engage you.

It certainly wasn't my intent to blame anyone for anything. But you do have to admit, people do have a role in their own misfortune most of the time, even it if is something as innocuous as where you choose to live or what job you do. Actions have consequences and reactions -- that is no way the same as victim blaming. Just, 2+2=4, that's all.

Blame and explain aren't synonyms. Neither are excuses and reasons.

Someone spends 12 hours a day out in the sun with no protection every day for 30 years and dies of skin cancer.
A person of faith might give you a platitude like 'Oh, it was just his time' or 'God decided to call him home'.
An atheist might say 'How can a just God let someone suffer from cancer and die? There can't be a God or things like that wouldn't happen'.

Are we just going to pretend the person's actions didn't cause the cancer and lead to death? Why is that God's fault? Or the sun's? Or, to your point -- anyone's?

Real word example:

My father died from working in asbestos without proper protective equipment. God didn't kill my father. My father wasn't to blame. The asbestos killed my father. The asbestos manufacturers who lied about their product causing cancer killed my father.

BUT, if Dad hadn't worked in a profession that exposed him to asbestos, he wouldn't have died of mesothelioma.

That's all I am saying. Faith doesn't demand a reason or explanation for everything -- mine doesn't anyway.

The universe is the way it is, and it does what it does, and we understand very, very little about any of it, and anyone in a suit or collar or labcoat who tells you otherwise is lying to you, IMO.


The fact that we sometimes contribute to our own misfortune does not help explain the innocent suffering that we all know occurs.

Viruses had to be created by God before they could be especially problematic in crowded areas.  Cancer existed long before we started eating processed foods.  Horrible cruel diseases like ALS are not related to lifestyle.

I think that whatever your belief, you have to accept that the problem of pain and a loving God is a contradiction that cannot be answered and its best to just be honest about it.  There is no belief system that has zero unanswered questions.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on June 04, 2018, 05:19:28 PM
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I do believe there is something out there beyond this world but I also believe that whatever it is that is out there is not necessarily responsible for all of what goes on in our world.  I.E starving children, poverty, illness.
To quote one of The Fly "aphorisms", the fault is not of God.

I think it was actually GUILT IS NOT OF GOD.

I reconcile the question of how suffering can exist in a world with a loving God with the concept of free will. Problems are man-made, not God-made. God didn't create little mindless zombies or robots. He seeks fellowship and relationship with us and love from us. You cannot force love. Hence, we are free to choose how we live our lives. We are free to do as we please. We are free to seek only our own carnal pleasures, safety and comfort and the expense of others, but this choice will always lead to suffering. That's what 'sin' is. Sin is not sleeping in on Sunday or eating shrimp. Sin is hurting others.

IMO.
That doesnít explain suffering from disease or natural disasters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't intended to, but many 'natural' disasters and diseases are actually man-made, and they are only disasters because of what we do with the Earth. We build houses feet away from oceans and then blame God or nature when those houses are destroyed by a hurricane.

Ever thought about that?

At the risk of getting anywhere near this topic, this sounds an awful lot like justifying anything bad that happensóitís an easy way to continue thinking the world is ultimately good and fair, and that good people donít have bad things happen to them, or that bad things happen only to people who somehow deserve itósay, living too close to the ocean, or global warming, or somethingówhich can be comforting.

I believe itís fairer to say that bad things can happen indiscriminately. Sometimes bad things happen through no fault of anyone. And certainly through no fault of the victims. Or are we blaming victims of tornados for living where they live, or wild fires, or volcanoes and lightning strikes and earthquakes?

But then, I donít think I believe what you believe, so I donít really have any stake in it whatsoever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't spend any time whatsoever anymore trying to explain why the universe is the way that it is. It is unknowable -- for religion or science -- and I find the discussion tedious and unnecessary. We have real-life problems right here and right now that we can't seem to solve, so how in the hell are we ever going to know how many billions of years old the universe is? And what difference would it make if we did know?

I was just responding to a comment; I think it is rude to ignore people who directly engage you.

It certainly wasn't my intent to blame anyone for anything. But you do have to admit, people do have a role in their own misfortune most of the time, even it if is something as innocuous as where you choose to live or what job you do. Actions have consequences and reactions -- that is no way the same as victim blaming. Just, 2+2=4, that's all.

Blame and explain aren't synonyms. Neither are excuses and reasons.

Someone spends 12 hours a day out in the sun with no protection every day for 30 years and dies of skin cancer.
A person of faith might give you a platitude like 'Oh, it was just his time' or 'God decided to call him home'.
An atheist might say 'How can a just God let someone suffer from cancer and die? There can't be a God or things like that wouldn't happen'.

Are we just going to pretend the person's actions didn't cause the cancer and lead to death? Why is that God's fault? Or the sun's? Or, to your point -- anyone's?

Real word example:

My father died from working in asbestos without proper protective equipment. God didn't kill my father. My father wasn't to blame. The asbestos killed my father. The asbestos manufacturers who lied about their product causing cancer killed my father.

BUT, if Dad hadn't worked in a profession that exposed him to asbestos, he wouldn't have died of mesothelioma.

That's all I am saying. Faith doesn't demand a reason or explanation for everything -- mine doesn't anyway.

The universe is the way it is, and it does what it does, and we understand very, very little about any of it, and anyone in a suit or collar or labcoat who tells you otherwise is lying to you, IMO.


The fact that we sometimes contribute to our own misfortune does not help explain the innocent suffering that we all know occurs.

Viruses had to be created by God before they could be especially problematic in crowded areas.  Cancer existed long before we started eating processed foods.  Horrible cruel diseases like ALS are not related to lifestyle.

I think that whatever your belief, you have to accept that the problem of pain and a loving God is a contradiction that cannot be answered and its best to just be honest about it.  There is no belief system that has zero unanswered questions.


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Agreed. It is hard to reconcile pain with God, but it is also hard to explain love without him.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: shineinthesummernight on June 04, 2018, 05:53:08 PM
Childhood cancer
Holocaust victims
Suffering animals
Children born disabled

    Just a few examples of how people did not cause, directly or indirectly, their own suffering.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint1322 on June 04, 2018, 08:56:38 PM
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Childhood cancer
Holocaust victims
Suffering animals
Children born disabled

    Just a few examples of how people did not cause, directly or indirectly, their own suffering.

Iím not really talking about individuals as I am humans in general. The evil and stupidity of men is usually the culprit. It manifests many different ways. If our world werenít so polluted, how much cancer would there even be? Can there be genocide without evil humans?

The better question is why a perfect Creator has such an imperfect creation isnít it?

Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 05, 2018, 04:45:09 AM
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Agreed. It is hard to reconcile pain with God, but it is also hard to explain love without him.

Not sure what you mean?  I love my family, close friends, my dogs, care about the world, environment etc and there is no God in my life. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 05, 2018, 08:09:49 AM
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Agreed. It is hard to reconcile pain with God, but it is also hard to explain love without him.

Not sure what you mean?  I love my family, close friends, my dogs, care about the world, environment etc and there is no God in my life.

I think you are taking what is intended to be a macro comment and making it very micro.

I'm not saying you have to love God to be able to love your kids; I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I really wasn't intending to start a debate here, and what goes on in your house is absolutely none of my business. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Johnny Feathers on June 05, 2018, 08:26:28 AM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 05, 2018, 08:53:43 AM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

I believe animals bond with humans and each other -- but I also think we project human emotions onto them. I'm sure you've heard stories about dogs nibbling on other dogs or even their masters should they die and the dog get hungry.

Survival instincts and doing what is in the best interest of the species isn't the same as empathy, IMO. It may look the same, but it isn't.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 05, 2018, 09:01:35 AM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self. 
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 05, 2018, 09:12:53 AM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 05, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.

Iím not convinced you can deduce the existence of God from the existence of love or empathy.  It is possible that the human species has survived and proliferated partially because of our tendency for social cooperation, just like wolves benefit as a species from their pack behavior.  You are attaching a profound numinous meaning to the particular firing of neurons in the brain that we experience as empathy.  I would be curious to understand how you connect the two.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 05, 2018, 01:43:37 PM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.

Iím not convinced you can deduce the existence of God from the existence of love or empathy.  It is possible that the human species has survived and proliferated partially because of our tendency for social cooperation, just like wolves benefit as a species from their pack behavior.  You are attaching a profound numinous meaning to the particular firing of neurons in the brain that we experience as empathy.  I would be curious to understand how you connect the two.


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The alternative, IMO, is to suggest people only care for each other as a means to an end. That is to say, I only care what happens to you because it might impact me. I need you to be content and well-fed, or you will come over to my house and rob me of my food.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I am not suggesting that love or empathy prove God per se, but IMO, their existence suggests to me there is an alternate spiritual plane apart from the physical one, dominated by the instinct to survive, thrive and procreate.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 05, 2018, 06:51:57 PM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.

Iím not convinced you can deduce the existence of God from the existence of love or empathy.  It is possible that the human species has survived and proliferated partially because of our tendency for social cooperation, just like wolves benefit as a species from their pack behavior.  You are attaching a profound numinous meaning to the particular firing of neurons in the brain that we experience as empathy.  I would be curious to understand how you connect the two.


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The alternative, IMO, is to suggest people only care for each other as a means to an end. That is to say, I only care what happens to you because it might impact me. I need you to be content and well-fed, or you will come over to my house and rob me of my food.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I am not suggesting that love or empathy prove God per se, but IMO, their existence suggests to me there is an alternate spiritual plane apart from the physical one, dominated by the instinct to survive, thrive and procreate.

I donít follow your logic.  I recognize that people act selflessly.  I just donít see what it has to do with whether or not God exists.  I think the selfless instinct evolved because it was beneficial to the human race overall.  Said another way,  the human race has proliferated because the selfless instinct happened to occur by chance and then survival of the offspring of selfless people happened in greater frequency than those of parents who would neglect their children.  Our selfless instincts and empathy are part of the parenting instinct.  Any species that didnít have it likely would go extinct unless there were other biological traits that made it unnecessary..  What would be hard to explain is if we didnít have empathy.  A human baby cannot survive on its own.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 05, 2018, 08:28:16 PM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.

Iím not convinced you can deduce the existence of God from the existence of love or empathy.  It is possible that the human species has survived and proliferated partially because of our tendency for social cooperation, just like wolves benefit as a species from their pack behavior.  You are attaching a profound numinous meaning to the particular firing of neurons in the brain that we experience as empathy.  I would be curious to understand how you connect the two.


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The alternative, IMO, is to suggest people only care for each other as a means to an end. That is to say, I only care what happens to you because it might impact me. I need you to be content and well-fed, or you will come over to my house and rob me of my food.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I am not suggesting that love or empathy prove God per se, but IMO, their existence suggests to me there is an alternate spiritual plane apart from the physical one, dominated by the instinct to survive, thrive and procreate.

I donít follow your logic.  I recognize that people act selflessly.  I just donít see what it has to do with whether or not God exists.  I think the selfless instinct evolved because it was beneficial to the human race overall.  Said another way,  the human race has proliferated because the selfless instinct happened to occur by chance and then survival of the offspring of selfless people happened in greater frequency than those of parents who would neglect their children.  Our selfless instincts and empathy are part of the parenting instinct.  Any species that didnít have it likely would go extinct unless there were other biological traits that made it unnecessary..  What would be hard to explain is if we didnít have empathy.  A human baby cannot survive on its own.


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A strict evolutionist would tell you animals care for their young because of the instinct to survive and populate. Empathy has nothing to do with it. Some might say humans are no different. Thatís what I was getting at earlier. I think nature gives us the instinct to survive and to want to reproduce, but something else makes us CARE and feel.

You keep calling that force God. Thatís what I would call it, but others might call if something else. Whatever it is, I believe it literally is supernatural, or outside nature.

Itís fine if you donít agree, but Iím not sure how many more ways or times I can say the same thing.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 05, 2018, 09:06:19 PM
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I am suggesting that the concept of love is biologically unnecessary and wouldn't exist had God not 'invented' (for lack of a better word) it in the first place. You'd still nurture and protect your kids out of an instinct to survive without love. We'd still have the instinct to mate and procreate without love. You'd want a safe world for your kids without love.

I personally question why love and empathy even exist if there isn't some force at work besides the randomness of nature. That's all I am saying.

I'm not intending to debate anything here either, I just think what you are describing IS love and empathy.  I think they are concepts that aren't unique to humans, or spirituality, but many, many "social" creatures.  I think humans tend to elevate their own emotions as something other than biology/sociology, but that, in the end, that is likely to be all that it is.  I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise at this point.

Yes I tend to agree although could also be wrong!.  You can see examples of love and empathy among families of elephants who appear to go through a mourning process when they lose a family member.  Interesting because they are one of the few animals along with dolphins and the great apes that can also recognise their own reflection in a mirror so they have an awareness of self.

They absolutely do. Those videos of elephants mourning are heartbreaking.

Iím not convinced you can deduce the existence of God from the existence of love or empathy.  It is possible that the human species has survived and proliferated partially because of our tendency for social cooperation, just like wolves benefit as a species from their pack behavior.  You are attaching a profound numinous meaning to the particular firing of neurons in the brain that we experience as empathy.  I would be curious to understand how you connect the two.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The alternative, IMO, is to suggest people only care for each other as a means to an end. That is to say, I only care what happens to you because it might impact me. I need you to be content and well-fed, or you will come over to my house and rob me of my food.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I am not suggesting that love or empathy prove God per se, but IMO, their existence suggests to me there is an alternate spiritual plane apart from the physical one, dominated by the instinct to survive, thrive and procreate.

I donít follow your logic.  I recognize that people act selflessly.  I just donít see what it has to do with whether or not God exists.  I think the selfless instinct evolved because it was beneficial to the human race overall.  Said another way,  the human race has proliferated because the selfless instinct happened to occur by chance and then survival of the offspring of selfless people happened in greater frequency than those of parents who would neglect their children.  Our selfless instincts and empathy are part of the parenting instinct.  Any species that didnít have it likely would go extinct unless there were other biological traits that made it unnecessary..  What would be hard to explain is if we didnít have empathy.  A human baby cannot survive on its own.


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A strict evolutionist would tell you animals care for their young because of the instinct to survive and populate. Empathy has nothing to do with it. Some might say humans are no different. Thatís what I was getting at earlier. I think nature gives us the instinct to survive and to want to reproduce, but something else makes us CARE and feel.

You keep calling that force God. Thatís what I would call it, but others might call if something else. Whatever it is, I believe it literally is supernatural, or outside nature.

Itís fine if you donít agree, but Iím not sure how many more ways or times I can say the same thing.

All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct.  I donít see the distinction.  All our emotions of ďempathyĒ are just electrical signals in our brain, causing us to behave in certain ways.  I see no requirement for a supernatural component to trigger those electrical signals we call emotions.  They are part of the physical nature of our brains that has evolved.

To be clear, Iím not saying this means God cannot exist.  I am only saying that I donít see it as evidence of God, which was what was suggested earlier and what I was responding to.  I donít think you can prove or disprove the existence of ďgodĒ through observation of the physical world.

Thanks for the discussion.  I have thought a lot about these things over the years and remain curious.  Iím always interested to know if anyone else has thought of it in some way that would challenge my own ideas.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Peterrrrr on June 05, 2018, 11:54:11 PM
Im from Sweden where the majority are Atheists.

I view their religious lyrics just as any other fairytales lyrics like all those powermetal bands singing about dragons, knights....
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: JFW on June 06, 2018, 03:10:29 AM
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Im from Sweden where the majority are Atheists.

I view their religious lyrics just as any other fairytales lyrics like all those powermetal bands singing about dragons, knights....
Wrong  ;).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 06, 2018, 05:04:32 AM
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A strict evolutionist would tell you animals care for their young because of the instinct to survive and populate. Empathy has nothing to do with it. Some might say humans are no different. Thatís what I was getting at earlier. I think nature gives us the instinct to survive and to want to reproduce, but something else makes us CARE and feel.

You keep calling that force God. Thatís what I would call it, but others might call if something else. Whatever it is, I believe it literally is supernatural, or outside nature.

Itís fine if you donít agree, but Iím not sure how many more ways or times I can say the same thing.

Well I obviously believe in evolution and I think it can absolutely be a part of this process.  There are several other species apart from our own that have developed a level of self as I have mentioned, we also know that Neanderthal man existed, a different humanoid species from our own but with high level self awareness and intelligence, they were just unable to be as flexible and adapt quickly as us to the big climatic changes.  We are the top predators on this planet for sure and with it probably comes an evolution of complete self awareness along with love and empathy, hatred and all the other myriad of emotions that we aware of.  Perhaps the engineer of our success and maybe in the end our downfall. 

An interesting discussion for sure!  I mean who knows who is right or wrong or if it is all somehow linked!  But certainly it is what drives us this ability to question and seek for answers to our existence in a very small solar system in a very large Universe! Once if you didn't believe in God you were likely to be executed as a heretic, thank goodness we can now choose to explore the natural world and find our own beliefs!
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Luzita on June 06, 2018, 02:58:39 PM
I work at a small software company with more than our share of eccentric characters (I include myself in that number). Up until one of them retired, we had a pair of engineers who argued Evolution vs. Creation *every single day* I kid you not. Neither of them ever got the other to budge but they sure seemed to enjoy the attempt.

I am a Christian and I also have a strong science background. I see no conflict between the two. Most churches donít. Many people of faith have made major contributions to science. For example Georges Lemaitre, who did important work on the Big Bang theory, was not only a believer, he was a Catholic priest.

There are certain fundamentalist sects who donít accept evolution. Iíve known people like that and, though I believe they are incorrect from a scientific viewpoint, I can appreciate where theyíre coming from.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Luzita on June 06, 2018, 03:13:19 PM
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Once if you didn't believe in God you were likely to be executed as a heretic, thank goodness we can now choose to explore the natural world and find our own beliefs!
Thatís true, and itís a terrible thing. However it is also true that in some times and places ó like Communist countries or the pagan Roman Empireó you could also be executed for believing in God.

We need to remember that fanaticism and intolerance are not confined to any particular religion, or even to religion in general. As modern history has taught us, secular ideology can be just as bad as the worst sort of religion.



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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 06, 2018, 05:45:14 PM
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I work at a small software company with more than our share of eccentric characters (I include myself in that number). Up until one of them retired, we had a pair of engineers who argued Evolution vs. Creation *every single day* I kid you not. Neither of them ever got the other to budge but they sure seemed to enjoy the attempt.

I am a Christian and I also have a strong science background. I see no conflict between the two. Most churches donít. Many people of faith have made major contributions to science. For example Georges Lemaitre, who did important work on the Big Bang theory, was not only a believer, he was a Catholic priest.

There are certain fundamentalist sects who donít accept evolution. Iíve known people like that and, though I believe they are incorrect from a scientific viewpoint, I can appreciate where theyíre coming from.


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I also donít see a conflict between belief in God and evolution.  But I think some people somehow feel that if you understand how it works it removes the mystery and, consequently, the need for a God to explain things.  I see science as addressing ďHowĒ and religion as addressing ďWhyĒ.  I think the problem is when people feel the need to prove or disprove God based on the way things work or our observations of the physical world.  I donít think thatís possible.  If you believe in God, its based on intuition and that has to be enough of a reason for you.


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 06, 2018, 05:48:33 PM
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Once if you didn't believe in God you were likely to be executed as a heretic, thank goodness we can now choose to explore the natural world and find our own beliefs!
Thatís true, and itís a terrible thing. However it is also true that in some times and places ó like Communist countries or the pagan Roman Empireó you could also be executed for believing in God.

We need to remember that fanaticism and intolerance are not confined to any particular religion, or even to religion in general. As modern history has taught us, secular ideology can be just as bad as the worst sort of religion.



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Yes true, intolerance and fanaticism is worse than anything.  I think that probably at the core of Bono and his lyrics and even his actions although often imperfect and perhaps regularly misconstrued is the concept that love, compassion and tolerance is the way forward regardless of what you believe in.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: summerholly on June 06, 2018, 05:56:57 PM
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I work at a small software company with more than our share of eccentric characters (I include myself in that number). Up until one of them retired, we had a pair of engineers who argued Evolution vs. Creation *every single day* I kid you not. Neither of them ever got the other to budge but they sure seemed to enjoy the attempt.

I am a Christian and I also have a strong science background. I see no conflict between the two. Most churches donít. Many people of faith have made major contributions to science. For example Georges Lemaitre, who did important work on the Big Bang theory, was not only a believer, he was a Catholic priest.

There are certain fundamentalist sects who donít accept evolution. Iíve known people like that and, though I believe they are incorrect from a scientific viewpoint, I can appreciate where theyíre coming from.


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I also donít see a conflict between belief in God and evolution.  But I think some people somehow feel that if you understand how it works it removes the mystery and, consequently, the need for a God to explain things.  I see science as addressing ďHowĒ and religion as addressing ďWhyĒ.  I think the problem is when people feel the need to prove or disprove God based on the way things work or our observations of the physical world.  I donít think thatís possible.  If you believe in God, its based on intuition and that has to be enough of a reason for you.


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I think intuition can work both ways.  Gaining a better understanding of how things work can often influence your intuition.  I would like to believe in some higher being especially as I lose people and animals that I love, but as more data around the workings of the universe has come to light deep down my gut instinct and intuition is telling me that there is probably none.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ElectricalVoice on June 07, 2018, 01:19:07 AM
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All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct. 

Exactly! Emotions and feelings are not conscious choices. They just come. Instincts must manifest in some way, and instincts are by definition not conscious. Instincts manifest via emotions, feelings, empathy, love, disgust, fear etc. What else is there?

It is not like that I am good to my neighbour because I consciously think that if I am not, he will hurt me. It is just an instinct that manifest as empathy and then kindness, and this instinct and emotion evolved because it was beneficial to the species.

Of course there could be a higher force that created these things, but evolution can also explain this. Therefore, for me, I see no reason to invent another explanation, when we already have one. Especially since we know for a fact that evolution has and is happening as we speak.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 07, 2018, 08:36:24 AM
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All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct. 

Exactly! Emotions and feelings are not conscious choices. They just come. Instincts must manifest in some way, and instincts are by definition not conscious. Instincts manifest via emotions, feelings, empathy, love, disgust, fear etc. What else is there?

It is not like that I am good to my neighbour because I consciously think that if I am not, he will hurt me. It is just an instinct that manifest as empathy and then kindness, and this instinct and emotion evolved because it was beneficial to the species.

Of course there could be a higher force that created these things, but evolution can also explain this. Therefore, for me, I see no reason to invent another explanation, when we already have one. Especially since we know for a fact that evolution has and is happening as we speak.

Feelings can be suppressed and ignored and after time, you lose them. Or, you may start to think differently and experience them more. Surely we know people who previously didn't care about something who later became empathetic to it because something changed their heart. Surely we also know of 'compassion fatigue' and becoming desensitized.

As for evolution, unless you believe every single word of a creation story is literal truth, there is no reason why God and evolution can't co-exist. Science and religion are nothing if not avenues to discover truth. They shouldn't be opposed to each other.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 07, 2018, 10:01:05 AM
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All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct. 

Exactly! Emotions and feelings are not conscious choices. They just come. Instincts must manifest in some way, and instincts are by definition not conscious. Instincts manifest via emotions, feelings, empathy, love, disgust, fear etc. What else is there?

It is not like that I am good to my neighbour because I consciously think that if I am not, he will hurt me. It is just an instinct that manifest as empathy and then kindness, and this instinct and emotion evolved because it was beneficial to the species.

Of course there could be a higher force that created these things, but evolution can also explain this. Therefore, for me, I see no reason to invent another explanation, when we already have one. Especially since we know for a fact that evolution has and is happening as we speak.

Feelings can be suppressed and ignored and after time, you lose them. Or, you may start to think differently and experience them more. Surely we know people who previously didn't care about something who later became empathetic to it because something changed their heart. Surely we also know of 'compassion fatigue' and becoming desensitized.

As for evolution, unless you believe every single word of a creation story is literal truth, there is no reason why God and evolution can't co-exist. Science and religion are nothing if not avenues to discover truth. They shouldn't be opposed to each other.

We are mostly all agreeing.  I get your point on emotions, but the fact that they change over time still, to me, does not require a supernatural force.  Instincts are innate tendencies that form the basis of how humans behave.  A person may become more or less compassionate because the mechanism of our brain has lots of inputs.  But the tendency for compassion is instinctive.

Just like all natural things there are variations.  In some human brains the tendency for compassion may be completely broken.  In others,  the chemistry and structure of the brain may be predisposed to exhibit great compassion.  You can take a person with anger or behavior issues and moderate their behavior by introducing a chemical into their brain in the form of a pill.  Or their personality can completely flip from loving compassion to mean and hateful from a brain injury.   

Throughout history, humans have induced what they believed were ďreligiousĒ experiences by taking hallucinogens.  In the end its all inside the brain.



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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 07, 2018, 10:22:58 AM
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All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct. 

Exactly! Emotions and feelings are not conscious choices. They just come. Instincts must manifest in some way, and instincts are by definition not conscious. Instincts manifest via emotions, feelings, empathy, love, disgust, fear etc. What else is there?

It is not like that I am good to my neighbour because I consciously think that if I am not, he will hurt me. It is just an instinct that manifest as empathy and then kindness, and this instinct and emotion evolved because it was beneficial to the species.

Of course there could be a higher force that created these things, but evolution can also explain this. Therefore, for me, I see no reason to invent another explanation, when we already have one. Especially since we know for a fact that evolution has and is happening as we speak.

Feelings can be suppressed and ignored and after time, you lose them. Or, you may start to think differently and experience them more. Surely we know people who previously didn't care about something who later became empathetic to it because something changed their heart. Surely we also know of 'compassion fatigue' and becoming desensitized.

As for evolution, unless you believe every single word of a creation story is literal truth, there is no reason why God and evolution can't co-exist. Science and religion are nothing if not avenues to discover truth. They shouldn't be opposed to each other.

We are mostly all agreeing.  I get your point on emotions, but the fact that they change over time still, to me, does not require a supernatural force.  Instincts are innate tendencies that form the basis of how humans behave.  A person may become more or less compassionate because the mechanism of our brain has lots of inputs.  But the tendency for compassion is instinctive.

Just like all natural things there are variations.  In some human brains the tendency for compassion may be completely broken.  In others,  the chemistry and structure of the brain may be predisposed to exhibit great compassion.  You can take a person with anger or behavior issues and moderate their behavior by introducing a chemical into their brain in the form of a pill.  Or their personality can completely flip from loving compassion to mean and hateful from a brain injury.   

Throughout history, humans have induced what they believed were ďreligiousĒ experiences by taking hallucinogens.  In the end its all inside the brain.



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I'm just not sure I can equate an instinct with an emotion. I've never thought about the two being the same thing. IMO, instinct is to run out of a burning building. Empathy is to run BACK into the burning building to rescue someone. Nature would program a parent to go back in after their child, but I'm not sure about a total stranger. Would a cat go into a dangerous situation to save another grown cat? Some people would, and some wouldn't. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: JTNash on June 07, 2018, 10:36:23 AM
Lots of religious people have zero empathy, so would this mean they are missing the message?
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Saint22 on June 07, 2018, 12:59:59 PM
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Lots of religious people have zero empathy, so would this mean they are missing the message?

If you are asking my opinion, I would say they are missing the ENTIRE message, point, meaning, reason, whatever you want to call it. If religion doesn't make you a better person, something is wrong somewhere. That's my opinion.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: JTNash on June 07, 2018, 01:40:57 PM
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Lots of religious people have zero empathy, so would this mean they are missing the message?

If you are asking my opinion, I would say they are missing the ENTIRE message, point, meaning, reason, whatever you want to call it. If religion doesn't make you a better person, something is wrong somewhere. That's my opinion.
I think religion is faiths worst enemy
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 07, 2018, 01:57:50 PM
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All I am saying is that caring/feeling IS the instinct. 

Exactly! Emotions and feelings are not conscious choices. They just come. Instincts must manifest in some way, and instincts are by definition not conscious. Instincts manifest via emotions, feelings, empathy, love, disgust, fear etc. What else is there?

It is not like that I am good to my neighbour because I consciously think that if I am not, he will hurt me. It is just an instinct that manifest as empathy and then kindness, and this instinct and emotion evolved because it was beneficial to the species.

Of course there could be a higher force that created these things, but evolution can also explain this. Therefore, for me, I see no reason to invent another explanation, when we already have one. Especially since we know for a fact that evolution has and is happening as we speak.

Feelings can be suppressed and ignored and after time, you lose them. Or, you may start to think differently and experience them more. Surely we know people who previously didn't care about something who later became empathetic to it because something changed their heart. Surely we also know of 'compassion fatigue' and becoming desensitized.

As for evolution, unless you believe every single word of a creation story is literal truth, there is no reason why God and evolution can't co-exist. Science and religion are nothing if not avenues to discover truth. They shouldn't be opposed to each other.

We are mostly all agreeing.  I get your point on emotions, but the fact that they change over time still, to me, does not require a supernatural force.  Instincts are innate tendencies that form the basis of how humans behave.  A person may become more or less compassionate because the mechanism of our brain has lots of inputs.  But the tendency for compassion is instinctive.

Just like all natural things there are variations.  In some human brains the tendency for compassion may be completely broken.  In others,  the chemistry and structure of the brain may be predisposed to exhibit great compassion.  You can take a person with anger or behavior issues and moderate their behavior by introducing a chemical into their brain in the form of a pill.  Or their personality can completely flip from loving compassion to mean and hateful from a brain injury.   

Throughout history, humans have induced what they believed were ďreligiousĒ experiences by taking hallucinogens.  In the end its all inside the brain.



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I'm just not sure I can equate an instinct with an emotion. I've never thought about the two being the same thing. IMO, instinct is to run out of a burning building. Empathy is to run BACK into the burning building to rescue someone. Nature would program a parent to go back in after their child, but I'm not sure about a total stranger. Would a cat go into a dangerous situation to save another grown cat? Some people would, and some wouldn't. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

Cat brains do not equal human brains so Iím going to pass on that way of thinking about it.

With regard to the burning building, that was one of CS Lewisí proofs.  The problem to me is that its overly simplistic.  There are always competing instincts.  Fight or flight is a great example.  In the burning building its survival of self (self-preservation) vs not wanting to see someone else burn up (empathy). 

I think what you are really talking about is moral choice.  Lewis had an essay called something like ďright and wrong as a clue to the meaning of the universeĒ.   I think thatís where he uses the burning building example.  (Lewis was a big influence on Bono, by the way.)

Morality as evidence of God is a huge topic that I donít really have a grip on but if you are interested Google will give you a ton of links.  As far as I have gotten with it, it leaves me at the same point...it doesnít prove or disprove.  If you delve into it maybe we can bat it around.  I think this thread is pretty well hijacked now.



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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: ian ryan on June 07, 2018, 02:44:39 PM
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I think this thread is pretty well hijacked now.


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Just peeked in here and I had a similar thought. To all, please stay away from the blanket declarations about people on either side, thanks, and get back on track.
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Tortuga on June 07, 2018, 03:40:53 PM
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I think this thread is pretty well hijacked now.


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Just peeked in here and I had a similar thought. To all, please stay away from the blanket declarations about people on either side, thanks, and get back on track.

In case anyone else sees the irony, Iím pretty much the one who hijacked it, or at least one of the ones!


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Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: Maximus on June 08, 2018, 10:04:24 PM
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Lots of religious people have zero empathy, so would this mean they are missing the message?

If you are asking my opinion, I would say they are missing the ENTIRE message, point, meaning, reason, whatever you want to call it. If religion doesn't make you a better person, something is wrong somewhere. That's my opinion.
I think religion is faiths worst enemy

Jt a lot of people think that as well, personally you guys know I am a traditional Catholic, however I listen to all different kinds of Christian preachers and writers from the Pope to Bonhoeffer. At the end of the day we are all Brothers and Sisters and we need to treat each other as such. That is the message of Christ that is the bottom line - Love one another as God has loved you. Guess what even if you are an Atheist I will disagree with you and argue with you but bottom line i will defend your right not to believe, I believe God gave us free will he doesnít want robots, he wants us to come to him with our head and heart by our free will and on our own. I believe God loves you the same as he loves everyone else. But once again if you donít believe thatís fine that is your right, as long as know one takes my right to believe away itís cool
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: JTNash on June 09, 2018, 07:29:09 AM
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Lots of religious people have zero empathy, so would this mean they are missing the message?

If you are asking my opinion, I would say they are missing the ENTIRE message, point, meaning, reason, whatever you want to call it. If religion doesn't make you a better person, something is wrong somewhere. That's my opinion.
I think religion is faiths worst enemy

Jt a lot of people think that as well, personally you guys know I am a traditional Catholic, however I listen to all different kinds of Christian preachers and writers from the Pope to Bonhoeffer. At the end of the day we are all Brothers and Sisters and we need to treat each other as such. That is the message of Christ that is the bottom line - Love one another as God has loved you. Guess what even if you are an Atheist I will disagree with you and argue with you but bottom line i will defend your right not to believe, I believe God gave us free will he doesnít want robots, he wants us to come to him with our head and heart by our free will and on our own. I believe God loves you the same as he loves everyone else. But once again if you donít believe thatís fine that is your right, as long as know one takes my right to believe away itís cool
blessings not just for those on their knees.

But I agree with all you have said, Iím non practicing but still identify as Catholic
Title: Re: Any Atheist U2 Fans here?
Post by: shineinthesummernight on June 09, 2018, 03:03:57 PM
There are so many lapsed Catholics that I believe it would be the second largest denomination all together.